Mouseferatu
Hero
Diirk said:
Well, yeah.
But it's the combination that's broken, IMO, not necessarily either of the feats themselves when taken in context.
Splatbooks to Beware of?
- Thread starter galaga88
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Well, yeah.
But it's the combination that's broken, IMO, not necessarily either of the feats themselves when taken in context.
Rystil Arden
First Post
Yeah, guess I didn't express myself well. It happens. Methinks if I had said "feat you take of your choice" instead of "feats you take of your choice" I might have been clearer. But at low levels, when it is most broken, you probably won't have two metamagic feats anywaysMouseferatu said:*blink*
Wait. Maybe I'm not understanding you...
You do know that you have to choose which Metamagic feat Divine Metamagic applies to when you buy the feat, yes? You can't use it to Empower a spell in one battle, and then Quicken a spell in a second battle. You'd have to buy Divine Metamagic twice--once for Empower, and once for Quicken--to do that.
Or maybe you knew that, and I just misunderstood what you wrote. It's entirely possible.
Just trying to think of a few things to watch out for in the Complete Series. Some of these have been covered, but I list them anyway, to add support!
Books
Complete Divine-Yes the whole book. (I'm kinda joking, kinda not here)
PrCs
Ur Priest (CD)-9th level spells in 10 levels, Turn undead (see discussion about divine metamagic persistent spell), and he can buy an efreeti bottle and steal the ability to wish 3xper day without spending XP. Must be evil though, so easy to deal with.
Hulking Hurler (CW)-Can destroy the everything. Really.
Fatespinner (CA)-Has been covered. Easy entry, reroll, and adding to Save DC make it really crazy good. Assassin type wizards will love it.
Focluchan Lyrist (CAdv)-Not really broken cause of the requirements, but watch for players who try to get around them. They will try to learn druid from a druid they hook up with or use a ring of evasion to claim they have that ability. Say no. Even legit though, this class is pretty crazy.
Sublime Chord (CA)-Not really broken either, but it has a fast caster progression, and when used with Ur Priest and Mystic Thergue or FL, it gets messy. I like it though. Helps the bard be cool.
Radiant Servent of Pelor (CD)-I will repeat that this is better than the cleric in every way. Not anything to worry about though.
Master Trans. (CA)-The tenth level ability of this class is amazing. Use it with Shapechange and you can become some amazing things. My favorite is to be a Chronotyryn with the attacks of a Maralith. Bunches of attacks in a round. Options with this class are way out their, so be careful.
Effigy Master (CA)-Not really bad, but I have seen some ideas for effigies that are super powerful.
Dervish (CW)-Just gets a bunch of attacks, but watch synergy with other classes and stuff.
Frienzied Bezerker (CW)-Not even familiart with it, but I see it on enoug opimization threads to think it is a PrC to watch.
Halfling Outrider (CAdv?)-Can create a supermount. Really watch this one as your players could sneak it in on you if you aren't paying attention. Seems harmless at first...
Feats
Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)-Been talked about, but let me just reiterate the point about nightsticks from Libris Mortis. With a bunch of these, a Cleric can cast every buff he has and make them all persistent. And for the DM who says, "That's fine, let him use all of his buffs and then I can dispel them all at once," see my next idea.
Extraordinary Spell Aim (CAdv)-A gish using this with AMF is the ultimate tank. Another big problem with this is that it destroys any chance of balance for persistent spell. Even though many have pointed out how powerful PS is, the weakness is that it can alway s be dispelled and then you are SOL. Use a Persistent AMF with Extraordinary Spell aim though? Ouch.
Shock Trooper and Such-I'm not great with this one, but the whole 5/1 ratio of damage to BAB given up is something I've seen abused.
I'm sure I'm missing a few things here and there, but these are some good things to watch for. Also remember that they aren't "broken" (or at least some of them), they are just things you should keep an eye on. Sorry, but I don't want to list spells now. Maybe later.
Books
Complete Divine-Yes the whole book. (I'm kinda joking, kinda not here)
PrCs
Ur Priest (CD)-9th level spells in 10 levels, Turn undead (see discussion about divine metamagic persistent spell), and he can buy an efreeti bottle and steal the ability to wish 3xper day without spending XP. Must be evil though, so easy to deal with.
Hulking Hurler (CW)-Can destroy the everything. Really.
Fatespinner (CA)-Has been covered. Easy entry, reroll, and adding to Save DC make it really crazy good. Assassin type wizards will love it.
Focluchan Lyrist (CAdv)-Not really broken cause of the requirements, but watch for players who try to get around them. They will try to learn druid from a druid they hook up with or use a ring of evasion to claim they have that ability. Say no. Even legit though, this class is pretty crazy.
Sublime Chord (CA)-Not really broken either, but it has a fast caster progression, and when used with Ur Priest and Mystic Thergue or FL, it gets messy. I like it though. Helps the bard be cool.
Radiant Servent of Pelor (CD)-I will repeat that this is better than the cleric in every way. Not anything to worry about though.
Master Trans. (CA)-The tenth level ability of this class is amazing. Use it with Shapechange and you can become some amazing things. My favorite is to be a Chronotyryn with the attacks of a Maralith. Bunches of attacks in a round. Options with this class are way out their, so be careful.
Effigy Master (CA)-Not really bad, but I have seen some ideas for effigies that are super powerful.
Dervish (CW)-Just gets a bunch of attacks, but watch synergy with other classes and stuff.
Frienzied Bezerker (CW)-Not even familiart with it, but I see it on enoug opimization threads to think it is a PrC to watch.
Halfling Outrider (CAdv?)-Can create a supermount. Really watch this one as your players could sneak it in on you if you aren't paying attention. Seems harmless at first...
Feats
Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)-Been talked about, but let me just reiterate the point about nightsticks from Libris Mortis. With a bunch of these, a Cleric can cast every buff he has and make them all persistent. And for the DM who says, "That's fine, let him use all of his buffs and then I can dispel them all at once," see my next idea.
Extraordinary Spell Aim (CAdv)-A gish using this with AMF is the ultimate tank. Another big problem with this is that it destroys any chance of balance for persistent spell. Even though many have pointed out how powerful PS is, the weakness is that it can alway s be dispelled and then you are SOL. Use a Persistent AMF with Extraordinary Spell aim though? Ouch.
Shock Trooper and Such-I'm not great with this one, but the whole 5/1 ratio of damage to BAB given up is something I've seen abused.
I'm sure I'm missing a few things here and there, but these are some good things to watch for. Also remember that they aren't "broken" (or at least some of them), they are just things you should keep an eye on. Sorry, but I don't want to list spells now. Maybe later.
Last edited:
Rystil Arden
First Post
I have an Incantatrix in my game with Instant Metamagic and Improved Metamagic. Doesn't use it for Persistent spell. While the Incantatrix doesn't cause me problems because I'm expecting her to do nearly 300 damage with what Cornelia calls the "gatling-un Polar Ray" it is certainly more powerful than a normal wizard, by a lot.Thanee said:
It proved itself to be pretty broken when another Incantatrix came across the eternally suffering Solar that used to be his wife. The level 17 wizard/incantatrix/archmage decided that the only humane thing to do was to destroy the Solar, but he didn't want to hurt her, so he led off by casting a spell on her that made her immune to pain and take half damage from his following attacks. Yes, he protected the CR 25 Solar when it probably should have killed him without his help. And then he won...very easily, by himself...
Also, the party Incantatrix kills the party's Azer Cleric pretty much every battle from stray shots, which do so much damage that the Azer dies. The fact that the stray shots are often cold damage from Polar Ray doesn't help
Rystil Arden
First Post
Hmmm....my MoF doesn't say that. Must be an errata. That isn't really such a big deal compared to Improved Metamagic, which is, verbatim, an epic feat (and one that takes a while into epic in order to qualify).Thanee said:
Thanee
First Post
MoF? Then you're speaking of the 3.0 version?
Ok, in 3.0 the Incantatrix was overpowered, thanks to stacking of Empower Spell with itself mostly.
I'm talking about the 3.5 version from PGtF, which is vastly different.
Besides, the 3.0 version was errata'ed as mentioned above, too. Check out the MoF errata.
Improved Metamagic is a powerful ability, but in 3.5 it's not that bad, really.
Bye
Thanee
Ok, in 3.0 the Incantatrix was overpowered, thanks to stacking of Empower Spell with itself mostly.
I'm talking about the 3.5 version from PGtF, which is vastly different.
Besides, the 3.0 version was errata'ed as mentioned above, too. Check out the MoF errata.
Improved Metamagic is a powerful ability, but in 3.5 it's not that bad, really.
Bye
Thanee
Rystil Arden
First Post
Someone who bought PGtF (I didn't) told me that the Incantatrix actually gained even more powerful abilities without losing much. Then they read off the list of new abilities over the phone, not mentioning the fact that some of the old ones had changed. I at that point decided to stick with the 3.0 version as weaker, although it may turn out that I was wrongThanee said:
Thanee
First Post
The new abilities are neat, but not overly powerful. Most are just flavor and hardly useful at all.
The biggest gain is Cooperative Metamagic/Metamagic Effect, which allows you to apply Metamagic for free with a huge Spellcraft check a few times per day. That's what I meant, where you can deliberately break the class by having way too much Spellcraft and using feats like Persistent Spell (i.e. making the Cleric's uber buffs all persistent with Take 10).
The biggest loss is probably the immunity to death spells and effects.
Bye
Thanee
The biggest gain is Cooperative Metamagic/Metamagic Effect, which allows you to apply Metamagic for free with a huge Spellcraft check a few times per day. That's what I meant, where you can deliberately break the class by having way too much Spellcraft and using feats like Persistent Spell (i.e. making the Cleric's uber buffs all persistent with Take 10).
The biggest loss is probably the immunity to death spells and effects.
Bye
Thanee
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