[spoiler] Spike?

[ToddSchumacher]

Just watched the season finale, again, for buffy and I just realized something. I don;t know if its meaningful, knowing Whendon and co. it probably is. All during spike's trials, every single one of them, he never went into vamp-face mode.

Not once.

Hmm.

Comments?

 

[Ashtal]

Okie, SPOILER!

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Okie, it's been broadcasted in a few Marti Noxen (sp??) interviews that Spike's soul has been returned to him, but he remains both chipped AND a vampire.

 

[Umbran]

Okie, it's been broadcasted in a few Marti Noxen (sp??) interviews that Spike's soul has been returned to him, but he remains both chipped AND a vampire.

The production people on Buffy and Angel are known to give false spoilers, so I'm a bit skeptical.

You see, being a vampire with a soul creates problems. There's prophecies in the Buffyverse about "the vampire with a soul" - Angel deals with this regularly. Also, if there were a known avenue for vampires to get souls and still stay vampires, Angel would not surprise so many people for having a soul.

So, on a couple of counts, I doubt this. My doubt doesn't change whatever they're planning, of course, but I wil doubt it until I see it.

 

[Ashtal]

Really? I don't recall any obviously false spoilers released by the crew - generally they are pretty vague if they want wiggle room. Such as Joss' recent statements regarding Tara/Amber Benson, "Tara won't be back, but Amber will." That could mean anything (as a new character, as a ghost, or as one of the writers behind the camera). Marti's comments were explicit and specific, and discussed in an interview/online chat. Marti sounded pretty excited in the interview.

And it 100% supports the ending. The demon says, "We return your soul." There is no dechipping, there is no devamping.

Remember...Angel is on a different network. He's falling in love with Cordelia, of all things, so we've already had some major universe violations (Buffy being his One True and Only Love). What's cooking over there doesn't necessarily mean it's in the oven over in Buffyland anymore. We may be seeing a Buffyverse diverging from a new Angelverse, so to speak, simply because they can't share storylines anymore thanks to real work wonkiness.

And who knows ... maybe Angel ISN'T the Vampire of the legends anyways? Just to play Devil's Advocate, the demon part of Angel never sat around and said, "You know, I miss that human side of me." Sure, the human soul REALLY likes sticking around, and doesn't want to relinquish control to the demon, but in Spike, we have the DEMON saying, "Yeah, I want that soul back." I think that's an important distinction.

Course, he may have had it backwards. His words in the finally eppie were just as weasily as the Demon offering the change (at great personal cost - this is no casual thing that Vamps everywhere are lining up for). Spike may have meant the chip, but the Demon interpreted differently.

Regardless, it should be awefully neat.

 

[Ranger REG]

You see, being a vampire with a soul creates problems. There's prophecies in the Buffyverse about "the vampire with a soul" - Angel deals with this regularly.

Wait a minute. Didn't we have this discussion in an earlier thread before? I believe I did brought up the problem about TWO vampires with souls.

As for two related shows being on different networks, I have no problem with it. They could always do crossovers. I know that two shows produced by David Kelly did a crossover between two networks (Ally McBeal on FOX and The Practice on ABC).

 

[Ashtal]

In theory, they could, but in practice, the WB has firmly said no. As such, there are no cross-overs planned and Joss and company have gone so far as to say, "It's not happening."

Maybe if Angel finds its way to UPN before it finishes it's run - maybe. They are contractually obligated to pick up the show if the WB dumps it before Joss & Company are finished with it.

But in all the interviews, among cast and creators, they've really been emphasising that these are two separate shows which stand on their own.

Otherwise we'd have had some mention of Willow about to destroy the world a few counties over!

 

[ToddSchumacher]

All this discussion is really cool and all, I'm enjoying it. But Not about the topic at hand. I'm interested in hearing theories why spike wouldn't put his 'game-face' on during the trials -Before he gets hs soul back-

I think its pretty well established that when the vamps transform they get physically more powerful than when not. Why wouldn't he want every advantage during his trials?

Thoughts?

 

[Morrus]

Course, he may have had it backwards. His words in the finally eppie were just as weasily as the Demon offering the change (at great personal cost - this is no casual thing that Vamps everywhere are lining up for). Spike may have meant the chip, but the Demon interpreted differently.

I can't possibly believe that Spike would have travelled all the way to Africa, put himself through trials which (we are led to believe) he was unlikely to survive, and yet forget to be specific about what he wanted.

The only reason we saw him say "make me what I was" was to not give the plot away to viewers. I think it's pretty safe to assume he was specific off-camera.

So, the soul is what Spike wanted. Otherwise, that whole plot element is just ludicrous.

On a slightly tangential note - the concept of a still vamped, still chipped but re-souled Spike really doesn't interest me.

 

[WizarDru]

On a slightly tangential note - the concept of a still vamped, still chipped but re-souled Spike really doesn't interest me.

Agreed. It becomes a 'been there, done that' situation. An amoral, vamp spike was amusing for a while. So was the chipped, and then lovesick phases. Spike as a lovesick suitor who's human and can't convince anyone he's not a jerk anymore (if in fact, he stops being one) would be worth some laughs. Especially if he turns human, as the slayer would be far less likely to harm him (at least, after she beats the crap out of him).

But I'm just not quite clear how they could heal any of the damage from this season with regards to Spike. I'd love to see Spike become a watcher fill-in, but I don't see how they could make that happen with a chipped, souled vampire.

My main problem with Spike as a 'vamp with a soul' is that it was such a big deal (and considered virtually unthinkable) back in season one. This came out of left field so quickly, that it's hard to accept that a trial existed (regardless of how difficult) that could provide such, that the watchers wouldn't be moderately aware of. I mean, surely somebody would've succeded before, yes? I'm over-analyzing, I know.

 

[Ranger REG]

All this discussion is really cool and all, I'm enjoying it. But Not about the topic at hand. I'm interested in hearing theories why spike wouldn't put his 'game-face' on during the trials -Before he gets hs soul back-

I think its pretty well established that when the vamps transform they get physically more powerful than when not. Why wouldn't he want every advantage during his trials?

Thoughts?

Either that's the rule of the trials (to gain his soul back) or he think he is better off not using the vamp mode, advantageous or not.

You sometimes wonder why Angel does not take advantage of that ability everytime demonic baddies involved and there is no witness.

Although I am sure that once B:TVS RPG is out and allow players to play Vamps (despite the instant death by stake), they would take full advantage.