[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

[pezagent]

its a valid literary technique.

Would you like to bet some money on this?

 

[Storminator]

I'm still trying to figure out how a person who hasn't read LotR could come to that conclusion though. Obviously, you've read both (as have I), and I didn't find Dragonlance that much more user friendly (mostly because I was bored most of the way through them), but I am not sure how someone who hasn't read both could make a comparison.

Perhaps he's one of the millions of folks that read 50 pages of FotR and said 'this sucks." Then picked up a DL book and read it cover to cover. Which one looks more accessible?

PS

 

[Merlion]

If you think that correcting your errors is talking to you like children, that's your problem.

Well, your definitly mistaken about that. This forum has rules, and your constant rudeness to...basicaly everyone...is against those rules.
You see, it is possible to "correct someones errors" without being arrogant, rude and condescending.
You and Pezagent have both been reported to the moderators...although I would have thought PC and Morrus's posts would've been enough to tone it down. I guess not

 

[Storm Raven]

Perhaps he's one of the millions of folks that read 50 pages of FotR and said 'this sucks." Then picked up a DL book and read it cover to cover. Which one looks more accessible?

He hasn't said he tried to pick up LotR and read it. He said he hasn't read it at all. If his background is otherwise, I'd expect him to note that.

But as to your "millions" comment, if the number of people who have read a work is an indication of its asccessibility, I think Dragonlance loses out on the comparison. Based upon volumes sold and so on, LotR has Dragonlance beaten out by many millions of readers.

 

[Storm Raven]

Well, your definitly mistaken about that. This forum has rules, and your constant rudeness to...basicaly everyone...is against those rules.

Please cite the rule you refer to. Or go away.

 

[Merlion]

LOL! scroll up and read PC and Morrus's posts. that should be plenty

 

[Storm Raven]

LOL! scroll up and read PC and Morrus's posts. that should be plenty

They don't actually cite any rule. You seem to think there is one. Thus far, there hasn't been any personal insults, vulgar language or so on. Just point ing out where errors concerning the text (and the course of the movies in cases where the movies are being dealt with) are made. If you choose to interpret your being wrong about stuff as insulting you, that's your problem, not mine.

 

[Merlion]

read there posts again. They tell everyone to STOP THE CONDECESNION. You are STILL DOING IT
if you cant see how the way you are speaking to us all could be insulting (as about 3 or 4 posters have said) thats your problem, not mine

 

[Merlion]

You dont have to use foul language or actual come out and say " your stupid and have no idea what your talking about" to be insulting.
Wether you intend it or not, you and Pezagent both are really pissing people off. Stop and listen for a second

 

[Storminator]

2.An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3.A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

There is plot problem for the characters. They are getting trashed by the Nazgul in front of the Black Gate. Pippen in fact believes he is about to die. The good guys are about to loose. Out of nowhere the eagles show up. That qualifies as "sudden and unexpected" and is a solution to a plot issue.

If you look closely, Pezagent is using his terms very precisely and consistently (and to my limited knowledge, accurately). The point of the attack at the Black Gate is to draw Sauron's eye. That all the heroes will die is given. Therefore, there is no plot problem. In fact, the attack is completely successful.

The eagles are not "introduced suddenly." To fit that definition, this would have to be the first scene we see eagles in, but it's not. The eagles were previously introduced, and everything they do is entirely consistent with their characters: they fly, they have sharp talons, they are large enough to carry people. Eagles as Deus ex Machina fails on two points (not suddenly introduced, not resolving plot points).

Additionaly from a readers perpective we want to see Frodo and Sam live even if they are resigned to death. They are on Mount Doom with no food or water and are surrounded by lava. This is certainly a big problem and the Eagles are an "sudden and unexpected solution."

I beleive that this was not Tolkien's intent in using them but by the dictionary definition this qualifies. Therefore the eagles "technicaly" qualify. I hope that is good enough since it seems very clear to me.

1.In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.

What is this if not supernatural aid.

While DeM is supernatural, and it is aid, it does not fill the same literary role. Supernatural aid, as a techinical term, still requires support in the context of the story. Perseus's magic sword and boots are supernatural aid, and we see them provided before they are used. As a contrast, the Holocaust Cloak in Princess Bride is a DeM, because we never even hear mention that such a thing could possibly exist until it is needed, and then it turns out our heroes already have one, and it's the perfect tool for the job.

It seems the problem is that we have a difference of interpretation of the definition of deus ex machina. You are trying to differentiate Supernatural Aid from dues ex machina. I would argue that there is no difference. One is a subset of the other. You interpret dues ex machina as a wholely negative thing while that is but one of the three definitions given. Definition one lists a god being used to resolve a plot or extract the protagonist from a difificult situation. Gandolf is a god and he is used repeatedly to extract the protagonists from a dificult situation. There is nothing about sudden, unexpected, or improbable in this definition. In fact the is no indication that you can't use the same god over and over in this way as part of the story. Definition three also does not list any negative conotations. It is the same as one except that it widdens the field to include not just gods but any character or event. You seem to argue that Supernatural Aid is something different from dues ex machina which you use only definition two to define. I counter that your supernatural aid is just definition one or three.

Again you seem to just be focusing on definition two. Both definition one and three do not carry the negative bagage. Your concept of Supernatural Aid as a legitimate literary tool is my concept of definition one or three of dues ex machina.

You can't use definition 1 of DeM unless you are specifically refering to Greek or Roman drama. That's right there in the definition. That leaves with definitions 2 and 3. Defintion 3 does not refer to drama at all, and is there to cover the cases in real life that mimic the DeM, such as when an unexpected buyer appears to save your nearly bankrupt company from oblivion. That leaves, in the context of fiction, definition two, which happily coincides with the classic literary definition of DeM. This is why pezagent focuses on this definition: it is correct to do so.

DeM clearly has negative connotations, in all modern literary critiques. This is because it is artistically unsatisfying, almost be definition.

PS

P.S. Pezagant, despite your occasionally testy attitude (obviously from frustration), you have earned my respect. You clearly have the chops to break down a tale, and I find myself wishing I could go back to my college days and trade in a couple of physics courses for some of your dramatic analysis training.

P.P.S. As the trilogy winds away, I foresee a time when there are no more LotR threads, at least not how we're used to seeing them. To me, that makes this thread sort of the swan song of LotR discussion on ENWorld. It's kind of sad how it's needlessly degenerated into bitterness and acrimony.