[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

[Hypersmurf]

Later, at Helm's Deep, she is upset about having to go to the cave with those who can't fight. She says, "There is no renown in that." To which Aragorn says, "There may yet come a time for valor without renown," meaning she might have to fight the Urik-hai if they break through the defenses and reach the caves.

Renown is the same as glory, but she doesn't say she is seeking it. It is implied, yet it is also understandable -- to me, at least -- that she is upset, and might be saying something she doesn't truly mean.

I get the feeling that she's upset, and that why she's saying exactly what she means, when she normally wouldn't.

("Did you order the Code Red!?" "You're god-damned right I did!")

"She said it, but she probably didn't mean it" isn't a very strong argument for "She never says she is after glory".

-Hyp.

 

[barsoomcore]

I think I'm going to disagree with you, Shadowdancer.

Eowyn doesn't have a lot of lines in the films to begin with, so each time she speaks we must assume that whatever she's saying is important enough that we must consider it carefully.

Valor is certainly very, very similar to glory. To desire a chance for valor is pretty much to desire a chance to show how great you are, and pretty much an assertion that valor unnoticed by others is worthless.

And again to take your example of her reaction to being sent to guard the caves -- isn't it true that what people say in their unguarded moments reveals more about their character than anything else?

Eowyn's reaction to the news is not concern for Aragorn and her uncle, who will be facing the onslaught, not indignation that her contributions to the defense are under-rated, but rather that she is being robbed of what she sees as a chance for reknown.

Her priority is not to save her people. Nor even to save the man she's coming to love. Her priority, the only thing she mentions in this moment, is to have a chance to show how great she is.

There is one more very telling example -- when Theoden makes her Queen. He says "You're Queen now, so you have to look after the nation." Her king, her uncle gives her a direct order, the importance of which is clear -- and she disobeys him. Not even openly -- she conceals herself and disregards her duty to her people and her king.

For what? For glory.

I think it's clear.

 

[KenM]

Anyone else notice that Sam is given the book from Frodo at the Grey Havens, but in the next scene with Sam walking up to his house coming home from there, he is not holding it? He does not have a backpack or anything. Where did it go? Did Sam throw the book away?

 

[Shadowdancer]

Anyone else notice that Sam is given the book from Frodo at the Grey Havens, but in the next scene with Sam walking up to his house coming home from there, he is not holding it? He does not have a backpack or anything. Where did it go? Did Sam throw the book away?

He put it with the book Frodo was reading in FotR, and left in the forest when Gandalf arrived in Hobbiton for Bilbo's party.

 

[Storm Raven]

She never says she is after glory.

Except she does. You just, for some reason, choose to believe that her stated desire for glory means something other than that.

In the first speech mentioned, Aragorn asks her what she fears. Eowyn anwers "A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them. And all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire."

Valor is not the same as glory.

Yeah, pretty much it is in this context. She wants to be allowed to fight. She desires to shed the responsibilities of duty that she is surrounded with. The responsibilities of being a replacement queen for the Rohirrim and the attendant duties that go with that. Seeking valor, and eschewing duty, is the very core of seeking personal glory.

Later, at Helm's Deep, she is upset about having to go to the cave with those who can't fight. She says, "There is no renown in that." To which Aragorn says, "There may yet come a time for valor without renown," meaning she might have to fight the Urik-hai if they break through the defenses and reach the caves.

Renown is the same as glory, but she doesn't say she is seeking it. It is implied, yet it is also understandable -- to me, at least -- that she is upset, and might be saying something she doesn't truly mean.

So, when you say that she doesn't say that she wants it, you mean that you believe that her statement that she desires glory (in the form of reknown) doesn't count because of your entirely unsupported assumption that she means something different than she actually says.

Right. That's not a very convincing argument. Especially since there is no other instance in the movies in which Eowyn says something that isn't what she means.

There are three ways to know someone, whether they are a real person or a fictional character: by what they say, by what others say about them, and by what they do. On only one occassion does Eowyn mention "renown" in connection with being allowed to fight.

For a character with as few lines as she has, that's plenty. And I disagree. The "I fear a cage" speech also gives light on this character trait of hers.

No one in any of the movies ever says anything along the lines of "That Eowyn -- she's a glory hound" or "She only wants to fight so she can grab some glory for herself."

Yet they continually talk about how she should accept her duty and not seek out battle for herself. They don't talk about Eowyn as being a glory hound, because until she disobeys her uncle and abandons her responsibilities to (secretly) join in the ride to Minas Tirith, she actually does what she is supposed to do. After the battle, she has no scenes until after the war is over, and no dialogue in that one, so we don't see the aftermath of her decision being discussed.

And none of her actions in the movies indicate she is a glory hound.

Other than, for example, abandoning her responsibilities to join in battle so that she can win some personal glory. You know, instead of doing her duty and not getting the flashy credit, she chooses to disobey her uncle, abandon her post, and seek out renown.

 

[WizarDru]

Yeah, pretty much it is in this context. She wants to be allowed to fight. She desires to shed the responsibilities of duty that she is surrounded with. The responsibilities of being a replacement queen for the Rohirrim and the attendant duties that go with that. Seeking valor, and eschewing duty, is the very core of seeking personal glory.

I'm going to side with Shadowdancer on this one. I just don't see Eowyn as out for personal gratification, so much as being out for being given an equal chance to influence her own destiny.

A core part of movie-Eowyn's character is that she is treated as a lesser actor in events. Eowyn's main problem is that she knows that she is a competent warrior, something Aragorn recoginzes almost immediately upon meeting her, and yet she is continually shunted out of usefullness. Right or wrong, Eowyn sees her best value to her people as being side-by-side with her brother and uncle, choosing her own battlefield.

The contention that her responsibilties as queen bind her to sit back and watch others sacrifice and die without being given the same choice is what chafes her. In both cases, at Helm's Deep and Pellenor, if the men all fail, what exactly can she do, then? Critically short on fighting men in both instances, they eschew the fact that they need more spears for battle, and that they are employing old men and young boys to fight....and yet no one suggests that the King's niece, who is clearly a competent and skilled warrior, take part.

Eowyn sees this as the height of hypocrisy, most likely, and nonesensical. She's not there to protect the women and children: she's there to give the Kings some degree of mental comfort. And if the fate of the world is in the balance, and the hope of all men rests on one of these battles, why shouldn't she participate? The fact that a term exists such as 'shieldmaiden of Rohan' and the 'our women learned long ago...' line indicate that female warriors are far from uknown amongst the Rohirrim. Theoden is saving himself anguish, and that's the only logical reason for his denial of Eowyn. Does he truly think that if he fails (and in RotK, he clearly expects that they will) that it's preferable for Eowyn to sit in Edoras, waiting for the rampaging hordes to come?

I don't doubt that she also wants a chance at glory...something she gets, though I suspect she didn't fully appreciate the cost until after the fact. Her entire culture (and truthfully, all of the cultures of Middle Earth, except possibly the hobbits, who only have the Bullroarer) centers around regarding their past heroes, like Helm Hammerhand. But I don't see her as being solely motivated by a desire to be a hero of legend, and I think it's a tad unfair to ascribe purely selfish motives to her actions.

Her actions at Pellenor certainly don't indicate someone who was out to show everyone what she could do...but instead someone who wanted to do what was right and to do what she could do. That she aids and befriends the one other person about who shares the same dillemma is telling of this, to me. Granted, there is a greater reason for why Merry is denied...but thematically, PJ is clearly intimating that they have something to contribute - ultimately contributing one of the most important actions of the battle.

 

[Storm Raven]

I'm going to side with Shadowdancer on this one. I just don't see Eowyn as out for personal gratification, so much as being out for being given an equal chance to influence her own destiny.

She has as much chance to influence her destiny as anyone has (i.e. almost none). The individuals who fight, do so because it is their duty to do so. The individuals who do other things do so because those other things are their duty.

A core part of movie-Eowyn's character is that she is treated as a lesser actor in events. Eowyn's main problem is that she knows that she is a competent warrior, something Aragorn recoginzes almost immediately upon meeting her, and yet she is continually shunted out of usefullness.

Actually, she is shunted into usefulness, which is her problem. Theoden needs someone to be able to take care of his people while his duty as their defender calls him to war. Eomer is not present (having been banished), and he needs his warriors. He needs someone he can trust, and who can lead, and believes Eowyn has those qualities. Theoden places her in a position where she is needed.

Right or wrong, Eowyn sees her best value to her people as being side-by-side with her brother and uncle, choosing her own battlefield.

And her choice is selfish. She is needed to be a caretaker for those who need a leader. Her choice is to throw aside the duty that has been appointed to her, abandon her post, and seek out battle to show her valor and gain renown. She acts like a spoiled child.

In both cases, at Helm's Deep and Pellenor, if the men all fail, what exactly can she do, then?

Serve to lead Rohan's people in an attempt to save them. Someone has to assume responsibility for those who survive the war, even if none of her kinsmen do. She is given a great responsibility, and an important role, yet she casts this away so she can play hero. But heros don't shirk their responsibilities, they accept them. Heroism comes from shouldering those burdens.

 

[WizarDru]

Serve to lead Rohan's people in an attempt to save them. Someone has to assume responsibility for those who survive the war, even if none of her kinsmen do. She is given a great responsibility, and an important role, yet she casts this away so she can play hero. But heros don't shirk their responsibilities, they accept them. Heroism comes from shouldering those burdens.

But I guess I'm missing what the point was. If all of mankind's fate depends on this battle, and mankind is doomed if they fail...what is the point of leading people who are going to die? Essentially, Theoden is telling her "Sweetheart, you head home to tell everyone to await torment and death. I realize you're fairly good with a sword and spear and born to the sadle like all our folk, but the threat of the total annhiliation of mankind simply isn't enough to get to overcome the fact that you're a woman."

I can see a logic for her staying with the refugees in Helm's Deep. Theoden was confident of it's defenses, the people needed a leader to stem any chance of panic and this wasn't a battle for all of mankind, but for Rohan. Even if they failed (and "I know how to fight orcs, master dwarf"), they had an escape route.

But at Pellenor, if they lost, mankind would be wiped out. Destroyed. Pillaged, burned and then genocidally ended. Why not have Eowyn along?

 

[Storm Raven]

But at Pellenor, if they lost, mankind would be wiped out. Destroyed. Pillaged, burned and then genocidally ended. Why not have Eowyn along?

Not necessarily. Eowyn could have led the remaining people north in that event, for example. Further, while the bulk of the men were away fighting in Gondor, who was left behind to protect the women and children from bandits, other orcs and various other problems? Who was there to make decisions, be the voice of the King in disputes and other non-combat options. There is more to running a kingdom than making sure that your swords are sharp.

 

[TracerBullet42]

But at Pellenor, if they lost, mankind would be wiped out. Destroyed. Pillaged, burned and then genocidally ended. Why not have Eowyn along?

Theoden could fall in battle and the war could have been won without him. He wanted to ensure someone could lead in case that should come to be.