SPR: Quantification of the "Theurge-style" PrCls

The metamagic specialist sorc variant from PHB2 lets you apply metamagic feats to spells without increasing their casting time, which would let the sorc quicken his spells.:)


Right - but that is a variant sorcerer (who loses his familiar in the process). And that is because the text specifically mentions that it even allows a sorcerer to cast a quickened spell.

The normal rules specify for quicken spell feat:

Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

That is a class specific benefit so it would not apply to other classes - like the beguiler.
 

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Total number of spells
Total number of Low level spellslots (1st-3rd level)
Total number of Medium Level spellslots (4th-6th level)
Total number of High level spellslots (7th-9th)
Total number of Epic Level spellslots (10th level+)

All of that can be found as breakdowns of SPR.
Expected number of spells known (based on wealth)

This will always favor the Wizard and the Wizard-based Theurge types because, as I recall, only the various flavors of Wizards have no uppper limit on the number of spells they can learn. Most other PCs must either multiclass or take some kind of feat- Extra Spell, Draconic Legacy, a Bloodline Feat from DCv1, for example- to learn more spells than indicated by their class charts.

Quality of Expected Primary Stat(s)

This can vary greatly from campaign to campaign depending upon initial conditions- how stats are generated- to the general overall availability and potency of magical items.

Expected Save DC
Goodman Games' Power Gamer's 3.5 Wizard Strategy Guide has a chart on this.
Expected Spell Resistance Penetration of =CR & CR+4

Again, there are lots of ways around SR, depending upon feat and spell selection. The Draconic Breath feat that was the catalyst for this SPR metric, for instance, lets the spellcaster channel his arcane spell slots into an area effect attack that bypasses SR entirely. The damage output is less than for an equivalent level attack spell- typically about half- but SR is completely out of the equation.

Others include many Conjuration attack spells, Summons and Buffs. SR simply doesn't matter to them.

How do you factor that in?

Actual casting Level (with regards to range, damage, and other spell effects).

This too can vary greatly from campaign to campaign depending upon which books get used, and what spells, feats & items are available.

For instance, as I asked earlier, does the UM's spellcasting boost stack with that from Practiced Spellcaster? I can argue why or why not, but AFAIK, there isn't any rule that says they can't...meaning a PC with that feat and that PrCl could potentially have a +8 level boost to their casting level.

And that doesn't even take into account accumulating certain Reserve or Heritage/Bloodline feats which can also boost caster levels.

Any restricted school access (which schools are banned/unavailable to the character).

Goodman Games' Power Gamer's 3.5 Wizard Strategy Guide comes down 100% in favor of specialization...and would presumably do much the same for Focused Specialization if it were part of the PHB (which the book limits its coverage to).

Their opinions and statistical analyses consider the pros gained by specialization to be greater than the cons, and shows you how to ensure that they do.

Feats slots and any special abilities compared.

While undoubtedly valuable, those are difficult to quantify.

Feat slots are the easiest- you either have them or you don't. And for the most part, Wizards, Eldritch Knights and UMs do, and most others don't.

Special Abilities, though, are just as random in quality as spells themselves. Some classes let you cast in armor. Some let you channel spells through melee or ranged attacks. Some get you access to additional spells. Some give you better DCs to certain or even all spells. Some give you metamagical type abilities. And so forth. Which ability is best...or simply better?

Opinions will vary...and it would be difficult to come up with hard numbers upon which to base a mathematical comparison.

And we should compare across a wide range of character levels, in order to see the whole picture: 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th, & 25th. Alternatively 7th, 14th, and 21st.

As I said earlier, I have no problem with that. I didn't do it because I didn't have the time to do so- I picked the 20th level endpoint...and admittedly, screwed it up!

Finally, we should compare with other viable PrC for single classed spellcasters as well: Red Wizard, Guild Wizard of Waterdeep, Loremaster, etc.

SPR helps with those analyses as well.
 

For instance, as I asked earlier, does the UM's spellcasting boost stack with that from Practiced Spellcaster? I can argue why or why not, but AFAIK, there isn't any rule that says they can't...meaning a PC with that feat and that PrCl could potentially have a +8 level boost to their casting level.

And that doesn't even take into account accumulating certain Reserve or Heritage/Bloodline feats which can also boost caster levels.


Practised Spellcaster has a limit of a character's hit dice - so that your spellcasting bonus due to the feat can't exceed your hit dice (up to +4) and it only applies to a single spellcasting class per feat application. So I would say this places a limit on caster level increase (at least for the feat bonus).
 

Right, right...

All I was saying was that its conceivable that a PC with UM, Practiced Spellcaster, and assorted other feats might be able to cast the majority of his spells at or near the effectiveness of a 20th level single classed spellcaster.

For instance, if they do stack, the 20th level PC with UM had the spells of a 12th level Wizard, his UM +4 bonus (which seems to apply to both of his arcane spellcasting classes) plus Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) casts those Wizard spells he has like a Wiz20. He has fewer spells to be sure, but those he does have still have maximal punch. His Sorc levels, presumably higher to start off with, would also be fairly high.

Similar effects can be achieved with a good selection of those other Feats which boost DCs or CLs.
 

Others include many Conjuration attack spells, Summons and Buffs. SR simply doesn't matter to them.

How do you factor that in?

You don't. That is "understood", that SR only comes into play in certain circumstances. Nontheless, just because you can, if you try really hard, avoid ever having to penetrate SR, it is nonetheless a measurable quantity of how effective a character is in certain situations. If you are forced to cast a less effective spell because you cannot hope to penetrate the creature's SR, then you are worse off than the character who penetrates it with ease.

Same as you choose to avoid the question of quality of "Buffs" with your SPR, likewise, the ability to penetrate SR is another metric to measure the spellcaster's effectiveness.

Likewise, many spells beyond core (and I'm looking at you, Orb spells), are subject to DM whim, and you cannot really count on exotic sources to overcome/bypass SR. I for one, have never allowed those Orb spells for precisely this reason.

Are you saying you choose to ignore the fact that a single metric does not tell the whole tale, and refuse to take other metrics into consideration? Seems a rather stubborn position to take.

For instance, as I asked earlier, does the UM's spellcasting boost stack with that from Practiced Spellcaster? I can argue why or why not, but AFAIK, there isn't any rule that says they can't...meaning a PC with that feat and that PrCl could potentially have a +8 level boost to their casting level.

With regards to the Practiced Spellcaster, a simple reading of that feat renders your question mute. So they can't have a +8 to effective caster level, unless they are multiclassed out the wazoo, and are therefore casting relatively low level spells.... But otherwise, of course it stacks, but can never push the effective caster level beyond character level.

You speculate about every feat you could add to your build, without ever considering the feats available to the single classed character...

Practised Spellcaster needs to be taken twice for the theurge-type caster, just to maintain caster level efficiency in comparisson with the single classed spellcaster. Which means that the single classed spellcaster has two more to focus on other capabilities, or extend their abilities.

Goodman Games' Power Gamer's 3.5 Wizard Strategy Guide ...

You keep refering to this book I don't possess, yet seemingly haven't read the basic rules (questions about Practised Spellcaster which are answered in the feat description and generic rules, UM spell progression errors), which weakens your case. Nonetheless, the fact that certain information is contained in it doesn't detract from the fact, that the metrics I proposed are valid ones, to be applied together with "SPR". SPR is too blunt to be used as the sole metric.

Your original post was stating that the reason you disliked theurge-type PrC's was basically because the amount of "SPR" was too high, and they still had all these high level spell slots. When it was pointed out, that your build didn't have 8th level spelll slots, you redesigned the build, which showed at least you hadn't put too much consideration into the first post. It was based on your bias against the PrC-type, more than any real facts. Given that your spell slots were originally incorrect, how can we accept that your calculated "SPR" comparisson is correct?

Readjusting the UM to have access to 8th level spell slots, but fewer of them, and fewer 7th level spell slots to boot, means the SPR should once again be recalculated, surely?

Furthermore, this not only brings into question that the calculated SPR's for the UM is correct, but that even the calculation for the SPR's for the single classed spellcasting character. IOW, the whole conclusion can be done away with, unless the presentation is redone in a more careful manner.

Of course you are free to dislike the theurge-style PrC's as much as you like, but I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they are too powerful. Quite the contrary.
 

You don't. That is "understood", that SR only comes into play in certain circumstances. Nontheless, just because you can, if you try really hard, avoid ever having to penetrate SR, it is nonetheless a measurable quantity of how effective a character is in certain situations. If you are forced to cast a less effective spell because you cannot hope to penetrate the creature's SR, then you are worse off than the character who penetrates it with ease.

Just because a spell bypasses SR doesn't mean its inherently inferior to spells that depend upon their caster to do that dirty work.

That's why I said there isn't a metric- a hard & fast statistically derived number- that we can make those kinds of comparisons with.

Same as you choose to avoid the question of quality of "Buffs" with your SPR,

I'm not avoiding the question. I LOVE buffs.

I'm saying that there is no quantitative metric to measure spell qualtity ACROSS types and levels of spells, only opinions.

WITHIN types, however, comparison is easy. One can easily figure out which buffs are better than others, or which blaster spell gives you the best bang for the buck.

Likewise, many spells beyond core (and I'm looking at you, Orb spells), are subject to DM whim, and you cannot really count on exotic sources to overcome/bypass SR. I for one, have never allowed those Orb spells for precisely this reason.


There are lots even within the core- many within the Conjuration school.
Are you saying you choose to ignore the fact that a single metric does not tell the whole tale, and refuse to take other metrics into consideration?

I never proposed this as a sole metric.

Quoting me:

Yet more reasons why SPR isn't, should never be, and was never suggested to be a sole metric.

I'm putting it forward as a single metric, just like a baseball player has a batting average, his RBI, a slugging percentage, a RISP rating, an on base percentage, WPA, WPA/LI, Clutch (and probably a few other stats I'm probably forgetting) to measure his value as an offensive force on the diamond

The example of the baseball player shows that there are dozens of statistical methods by which a batter's quality is measured- so, by implication, should it be here. Sorry if you missed that.
With regards to the Practiced Spellcaster, a simple reading of that feat renders your question mute. So they can't have a +8 to effective caster level, unless they are multiclassed out the wazoo,

When I asked about PS, I said

For instance, as I asked earlier, does the UM's spellcasting boost stack with that from Practiced Spellcaster? I can argue why or why not, but AFAIK, there isn't any rule that says they can't...meaning a PC with that feat and that PrCl could potentially have a +8 level boost to their casting level.

By which I meant that, AFAIK, there was no reason I could see why they don't stack...but I was asking if anyone else knew of one- Eratta, or a FAQ, perhaps- any kind of statement that like Improved Critical and the Keen weapon property, they aren't supposed to.

And if you look at Sorc7/Wiz3/UM10, you'd see that the combination of the UM class ability and the PS feat means that, whatever spells such a PC has, he casts as an 18-20th level caster (Wiz caster level 10, UM feature +4CL, PS +4CL).

You speculate about every feat you could add to your build, without ever considering the feats available to the single classed character...

No, I'm just fielding and answering questions.

I already conceded that the Wizard will dominate in feat selection...as if that were even a question.

Quoting my original post

Now, of course as stated before, the SPR does not take into account things like the overall flexibility of the Wizard who has no upper limit on spell selections and a host of bonus feats, the situational flexibility of the Sorcerer who, despite knowing fewer spells, can choose what he wants to cast in real time, or the big difference in the quality of spells as their level increases.




You keep refering to this book I don't possess, yet seemingly haven't read the basic rules (questions about Practised Spellcaster which are answered in the feat description and generic rules, UM spell progression errors),

The GG book has a few of the metrics you proposed- that's why I keep bringing it up!

SPR is too blunt to be used as the sole metric.

Again, never suggested that it should be.

Your original post was stating that the reason you disliked theurge-type PrC's was basically because the amount of "SPR" was too high,

No, I stated I disliked those PrCls- SPR was just the first metric I found that supported any of my opinions.

When it was pointed out, that your build didn't have 8th level spelll slots, you redesigned the build, which showed at least you hadn't put too much consideration into the first post.

Dude, I already said I had several builds and just miscopied my data.

You could have corrected it or even used blargney's formula and seen that the trend was still in the direction I'm talking about. My math was off, so sue me.

Do you want me to "show my work?"

It was based on your bias against the PrC-type, more than any real facts.

I have a dislike, yes.

But the analysis is based on the math from a WotC supplement, not my presuppositions.

Given that your spell slots were originally incorrect, how can we accept that your calculated "SPR" comparisson is correct?

Because the math error I made is easily corrected- you could have done so in the time it took you to make your previous post.

Readjusting the UM to have access to 8th level spell slots, but fewer of them, and fewer 7th level spell slots to boot, means the SPR should once again be recalculated, surely?

Yep, and I said so.
Furthermore, this not only brings into question that the calculated SPR's for the UM is correct, but that even the calculation for the SPR's for the single classed spellcasting character.

Seeing as how their progressions were simple & linear and that top level Wizards have 4 slots/level of spell and FocSpecWiz and Sorcerers have 6 slots, their math was much easier.

IOW, the whole conclusion can be done away with, unless the presentation is redone in a more careful manner.[/QUOTE

You're throwing away the baby with the bathwater. I made a math error, but the trend still holds. The metric is valid, my math is bad.

Again...do you want me to show my work?
 

I really dislike this SPR idea.

Because it equates nine 1st level spells to one 9th level spell. Which is patently untrue. Regardless of whether certain 8th level spells are almost as powerful as certain 9th level spells.

A twentieth level psion has 433 power points (assuming Int 28). He can unleash the equivalent of twentyone 9th level powers at 20th manifester level, and have some loose change left over (13 powerpoints, or a 6th level power).

That equates to in SPR terms 21*18d6 + 1*12d6 = 390 "d6".

Alternatively, he could manifest 433 1st level unaugmented powers. Apparently, this is "equal" to 866 "d6".

If I was an adventurer, I know whom I would prefer to face off against.

This demonstrates the patent flaw with SPR: Large amounts of low level (1st-3rd) spells can in no way compensate for the big guns. Yet you say that the 15 1st level spells (SPR=30d6) that a UM has, are equivalent to 1 9th level spell, and a 6th level spell. They most definitely are not. The UM, then goes on to 15 2nd level spells (SPR = 60d6!) that is 3 9th level spells, and a 3rd level spell.

So already, in the first 2 spell levels, we discover 90d6 of SPR, which are almost irrelevant in a battle involving arcane spells at high level.

Another error is in the fact that the SPR considers the damage increase per level is linear, whereas the increase in actual spell power, is not. A 9th level spell (SPR=18) is not merely 50% stronger than a 6th level spell (SPR=12d6). It is far, far more stronger still. Mordenkainen's Disjunction vs Greater Dispel Magic, Wish vs Limited Wish (7th level) (25,000 gp vs 1,000 gp), Power word Kill vs Power word Blind (again, a 7th level).

Furthermore, stating that certain spells are rather weak (or strong) for their level, says absolutely nothing about the ability of the characters: they are the ones selecting which spells to cast. The wise character will surely choose the strongest spells available for any given situation? Thus the whole question of owerpowered/undewrpowered spells is rendered mute: You need access to a spell level to cast the "overpowered" spells of that level.
 

<snip>That equates to in SPR <snip>

You're comparing Apples and Porcupines.

I was unwilling to apply SPR to divine spells because there is no analogous feat that converts divine slots into damage-dealing attacks. I'm even less willing to use SPR to psionics. Psionics has different mechanics and math behind it than Vancian spells of any kind.

Yet you say that the 15 1st level spells (SPR=30d6) that a UM has, are equivalent to 1 9th level spell

You're still not quite getting it. I didn't design this at all- WotC did.

SPR is just a designation for taking the Feat Draconic Breath (or Infernal Howl) to its logical extreme- converting all of a PC's spell slots into direct damage via one of these feats.

There is no doubt in my mind that 9 1st level spells are not equal to a 9th level spell. Spells vary greatly in quality within a level, and over the span of 9 levels, there is great variation in spell quality.

But you can't compare spells in a quantitative fashion because they have too many variables and too few commonalities that can be statistically compared.

For instance, its easy to calculate the utility of a damage spell- finding its average and max damages are simply a matter of math.

But then there is that pesky SR...which some spells completely ignore. How do you factor that into a mathematical equation? What is the value we assign to that?

What about a Buff spell? How do you mathematically compare one buff to another- amount of bonus? Duration? ? Ditto Illusion spells? How do you mathematically compare them to each other? Or the effectiveness of either/both to the aforementioned damage spells?

SPR, OTOH, simply looks at slots.

Another error is in the fact that the SPR considers the damage increase per level is linear, whereas the increase in actual spell power, is not.

1) Its not an error, its a description of the output of a specific game mechanic.

2) Increase of spell power isn't just non-linear, its also not consistent. Ask any power gamer, there are 1st level spells that ought to be 2nd level, and 5th level spells that should be 4th level (or lower)...and this can be said of any level of spells in the game.

SPR at least has the benefit of consistency.
Furthermore, stating that certain spells are rather weak (or strong) for their level, says absolutely nothing about the ability of the characters: they are the ones selecting which spells to cast. The wise character will surely choose the strongest spells available for any given situation? Thus the whole question of owerpowered/undewrpowered spells is rendered mute: You need access to a spell level to cast the "overpowered" spells of that level.

The wise character may not have the best- indeed any- spell for a given situation. Even though Specialization is a (statistically proven) good deal for a Wizard, it also means that such a PC will have gaps. A Necromancer might not have Sleep- almost universally recognized as a top-tier 1st level spell- despite its quality. Ditto an Abjurer who might lack Magic Missile. In certain situations, their "strongest spell" might be the thrown dagger or a pair of hastily moving feet.

In addition, each spellcasting class presents its own spell-management issues.

The Wizard preps his spells- if he guesses wrong at the beginning of the day, he may find himself contributing very little. When we went through RttToEE, the guy playing the Wizard- and he is a Wizard power gamer (80% Wizards for the 20 years I've gamed with him)- guessed wrong a few times and had some days when his offensive spell selection had huge chunks of useless in them due to foes immunities.

On the flipside, spontaneous casters generally have a few spells from which to choose, but they cast them as many times as they care to. This means that if they choose wrong when they level, they may be surprisingly ineffective for several thousand XP worth of gaming. This can be exacerbated by the campaign itself. A Sorcerer loading up on Necro spells might be dead weight if a campaign shifts to an Undead-heavy foe demographic, which is why such classes usually have some kind of retraining mechanic to alleviate this possibility. It doesn't remove it completely, however- typically, it takes 2+ levels to change a single such "mistake."

And that doesn't even take into account things like PCs that are optimized to fit a certain character conception rather than statistical, mechanical perfection, player experience and human fallibility or simple changes in the availability of spells within a campaign.

Player preferences & perversity also factor in- in 30 years in D&D, I've never played a spellcaster with Magic Missile or Sleep- I think they're overpowered for their level, a bit munchkinny. However, a couple of levels from now, my current PC will be taking Magic Missile. Why the change? The PC in question is a Sorc/Ftr in a very limited ruleset (Core + the first 4 Completes only, PHB base classes only except Favored Soul, no PrCls), and is running around in Scale Mail & Shield and toting a Maul. Except for his spells without somatic components, he's risking ASF 40% of the time until he banks enough $$$ to get some mithril armor (assuming its even available). That ASF (and the PC concept) greatly diminishes my disdain for the spell in the context of this particular PC.

His supernatural 2d6/Spell Level 60' line electrical Dragon breath weapon, however, will probably see much more use.
 
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You're still not quite getting it. I didn't design this at all- WotC did.

You keep bringing this up and it constantly loses me.

What is it that WotC did that created this mechanic?

The only thing I have found is the designing new spells guideline in the DMG pg 36 - but that is inherently flawed since it only talks about max dice (and treats d4s the same as d8s - MM does max 5d4 + 5 dice which is the max dice for a 1st level spell, whereas fireball does a 10d6 (max for a 3rd level spell)).
 

No, SPR doesn't just look at slots. Using your SPR metric to compare these classes/PrC yields a lop-sided result. Precisely because 9 1st level spells are not equal even one very weak 9th level spell. Yet SPR says they are equal. That is precisely what SPR is measuring.

Because these theurge-type PrC's give up high level spellcasting ability, and gain a large number of lower level spells; from two spellcasting or manifesting classes.

Your metric allows the Theurge-type to have a large number, much larger than the single-classed wizard, precisely because it chooses to cheapen the value of the high level spell slot, and in doing so, it places a greater premium on low level spell slots.

You conceed that the ability you are using to create this metric in and of itself, denigrates the power of the high level spell. In other words this metric is flawed, as a method to compare relative power.

You are taking a single feat, and making it to be more than it was ever designed to be. It is flawed, precisely because it places a higher premium on the low level spell slot, and places a lower premium on the high level spellslots.

The feat can do this and get a way with it, as that is what feats are for: to allow characters to make tough choices. You can't use it as a metric to compare the relative power of various spellcasters (arcane or not)

As a feat, you can get away with erring on the side of caution. As a method to comparing relative power between spellcasters, you cannot.

So for instance, If the actual average increase in power level between levels is 2,5 (just speculating) then applying 2d6 is quite good, especially for the low level spell slots, which are more likely to be utilized for this ability. We wouldn't want the feat to be granting 2d6 / every other spell level and 3d6 every second spell level? It gets quite messy, and misremembered.

But even that would suggest that the 9th level spell slot is only worth 13,5 1st level spells.

As another comparison, we may look at Innate Spell from FRCS: it suggests that a 9th level spell slot is worth an unlimited number of any one 1st level spell per day. Yet few considered it worth taking anyway. Not even for the ubiquitous Magic Missile. How does that unlimited number of a 1st level spell compare to SPR?

5d4+5 * 10 (rounds) * 60 minutes * 24 hours = 72000d4+72000 = 252,000 average damage. Maximum damage = 360,000.
 

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