Spring attack and haste: stop me from getting cheesy

[Wippit Guud]

Ok, can you combines two partial action, no matter how you get them, into a full attack action? And if so, would this work? Conditions require the target is caught flat-footed.

Spring attack standard action - get an attack in, opponent is flat footed.
Hasted action + Expert tactician - two parital actions, combined into a FAO.
Spring attack move action - move out.

*note I don't have books with me at work (damn these early shifts), so if Haste doesn't stack with Expert tactician, I apologize.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Note that expert tactician has been changed so you can only make an attack with that partial action, and that only against someone who doesn't get his DEX bonus to AC.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Yeah, but if haste gives me a partial action I can attack with, and expert tactician give me an attack I must attack with, couldn't that combine into a full attack using them both?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

With a generous DM, yes. But officially, the partial action from haste either comes before your normal action or after.

If the DM allowed it, it could be done with exptert tactician or haste only:

part of the move action to close to the enemy
standard action + patial action (from haste or expert tactician) combined into a full-round action to make a full attack
rest of the move action to get away from him

Notice that with spring attack, you move both before and after your attack, and it's only one move action.
Also notice that with expert tactician, you have to get the enemy by surprise.

 

[Bubbalicious]

Hey, Piratecat

The basis of the issue lies in exactly how you define spring attack. The way I see spring attack is very simply the ability to split your partial move action into two parts (normally before and after your other partial action, in this case an attack). In this event, it would follow logically that your extra partial action from hasting could be likewise split to both sides of your remaining full action.

 

[Kershek]

Ok, can you combines two partial action, no matter how you get them, into a full attack action? And if so, would this work? Conditions require the target is caught flat-footed.

Spring attack standard action - get an attack in, opponent is flat footed.
Hasted action + Expert tactician - two parital actions, combined into a FAO.
Spring attack move action - move out.

*note I don't have books with me at work (damn these early shifts), so if Haste doesn't stack with Expert tactician, I apologize.

You cannot split your spring attack like that - the sage gave a ruling that spring attack has to be encompassed in its own action.

In fact, here's the sage answer from an email I sent him on Sept 1, 2002:

> > When hasted, can you do a full attack action in the middle of a
> > spring attack?
> >
> From a future question of the week:
>
>If I receive a haste effect, can I use the Spring Attack feat to move,
>make
>a full attack, and retreat all in the same round and avoid attacks of
>opportunity from the foe I attack?
> No. A haste effect gives you an extra partial action before or after your
>normal action. If you move first as your partial action, you can make one
>attack and the move up to your speed as a spring attack. In this case, the
>move partial action in is not part of your spring attack, and that movement
>can provoke an attack of opportunity from the foe you attack.
>
> You can find Question of the Week off the Dragon Magazine page of the
>WotC
>web site:
>
> http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dragon
>
>
>
>Skip Williams
> RPG R&D

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

I'm a teeny bit surprised nobody's mentioned The Fleet Runner of Ehlonna from Dragon #283. A 9th level Fleet Runner could use Swiftness of the Tigress to put a haste effect on herself then use Leopard's Pounce to deliver a full attack at the end of a charge. The extra partial action could be used to move (provoking a possilbe AoO; however FRoE get Greater Mobility at 1st level) or to use Run Like the Wind which is basicly a demension door effect.

I know of no other way to move, get a full attack action then move again. Bubbalicious said:

The way I see spring attack is very simply the ability to split your partial move action into two parts (normally before and after your other partial action, in this case an attack). In this event, it would follow logically that your extra partial action from hasting could be likewise split to both sides of your remaining full action.

I disagree strongly. I don't have my PHB handy and I'm don't have the SRD bookmarked (dang- I should ) but I'm quite sure the description for haste specifies the partial action comes before or after the full action of the hasted creature. It isn't split up nor should it be ('cause see then the spell would be "broken"). As far as I know things like move/full attack/move sequences are the benefits reaped of PrCs with a very specific "quick and nimble" class abilities (ie the FRoE).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html

 

[reapersaurus]

ya, that's a good point about the Fleet Runner of Ehlonna PrC - I thought about that when re-reading this thread.

But there are some other ways I just tremembered to perhaps get the effect that Piratecat's looking for:

Pcat - if all you want is to be able to full-attack, then move away from an opponent, you could get it with just Haste for moveing close, then have a guy with Reach do a full-attack, then 5' step back.

This will put him out of reach of a full attack from any creature without reach.
And all that Spring Attack combo you're looking for would get you is effectively the same thing : even if they could do a full move away, they'd still likely be within striking distance of their opponent.

So as long as you get more than 5' + (the opponent's reach) away, than they won't get a full attack against you.

This could also be done more effectively if your guy has Reach and a reach weapon (25' away after a 5' step back after a full attack), OR if your guy has some Knockback or Improved Bull Rush ability.
Knockback is MoF, +3 enchantment that pushes foes back (might stun).
If you don't want a Reach weapon, Improved Shield Bash gives free Bull Rushes so you can push the opponent back also (Large creature with Impr. Shield Bash and reach could get 20' away with 5' step back after full attack).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The 5ft-step can only be made if you don't move otherwise on your turn. And your turn includes any partial actions from haste or anything else. So the only way to get move actions and a 5ft-step in one turn is to make move-equivalent actions that won't change your position on the grid (reloading a crossbow, standing up from prone, etc..)