Stacking +1 ammo with +1 Weapons

[Kae'Yoss]

You're example shows nothing except that clerics (with GMW, DF, DP, and RM) are questionable, which is what you wanted to show. It has little if not nothing to do with arrows stacking with bows.

Consider this: Even with the weaker 3.5 GMW, and no cleric spells (except the GMW, which you could also get from the party wizard), this can get nasty. I'm sure you'll be able to get your party cleric or wizard to ensorcel one stack of arrows each day (getting the magic bow out of the shop). Bam! While others can get +3 weapons, you have +4 to +6 weapons.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Now how does mvincents' example counter this one (which was made much earlier by the way)?

Because these statements you made do not make sense to me:

But that is the entire point why the enhancment bonus (for to hit and damage) don't stack.

It is precisely because the special abilities do (actually they overlap).

The two enhancement bonuses do not stack because the special abilities overlap? That's the reason I'm giving that the enhancement bonuses should stack (perhaps with a -1 penalty). I must be misunderstanding your point, or you mine, because we can't both make the same comment to support our positions.

These specail abilities, while equivalent to enhancement bonuses, are not the same. They only apply special features - that may or may not always be useful - while the enhancement bonus is always useful.

What you are arguing here is that the special abilities are not actually equal to the enhancement bonus equal to the market modifier. While this may be a valid argument, it is one that which we must assume is not true (as I state previously). The reason why we must assume that is because then the problem is not with the archers, but with everything that uses those enhancements.

 

[mvincent]

It is impossible for a fighter (non - epic) to wield a melee weapon that has the equivalent of +19 enhancements
...
If the enhancement bonus' stacked then in most cases there would really be no choice to make
...
Now how does mvincents' example counter this one (which was made much earlier by the way)?

I'm unclear on which example you mean, and I'm fairly certain some people just aren't getting how this works (despite several efforts to explain). Given access to enough special weapon abilities, stacking isn't really a hinderance to a smart archer (although, yes, he often does have to make choices instead of relying on the simple enhancement bonuses).

The case that should be made (and is unbalancing) is if the archer had access to Greater Magic Weapon. Use of that spell can neatly counter my previous assertion.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Consider this: Even with the weaker 3.5 GMW, and no cleric spells (except the GMW, which you could also get from the party wizard), this can get nasty. I'm sure you'll be able to get your party cleric or wizard to ensorcel one stack of arrows each day (getting the magic bow out of the shop). Bam! While others can get +3 weapons, you have +4 to +6 weapons.

But, still this is about GMW, not that the arrows stack with bows.

In other words, to truly prove your point, you need to show that merely having a +5 bow with a set of +5 arrows is more powerful when compared to a +5 bow with a set of +1 flaming, holy, bane arrows.

In point of fact, what seems to be happening is that everyone is arguing that allowing the flaming, holy, and bane arrows to function is the overpowering aspect of it. This is what mvincent and I are trying to show (at least if I may speak for my esteemed colleague). I think irdeggman agress by his use of the "arsenal" example. Nonlethal Force clearly agrees, as well.

So, my conclusion is that if you allow the flaming, holy, bane portion of a +1 flaming, holy, bane arrow to stack with a +5 bow, then you should allow +4 of the +5 arrow to also stack. Or, just allow them to stack entirely or perhaps disallow enhancements on arrows, period (as Nonlethal Force suggests).

 

[Nonlethal Force]

So, my conclusion is that if you allow the flaming, holy, bane portion of a +1 flaming, holy, bane arrow to stack with a +5 bow, then you should allow +4 of the +5 arrow to also stack. Or, just allow them to stack entirely or perhaps disallow enhancements on arrows, period (as Nonlethal Force suggests).

Actually, if I could tweak this a bit, I would seperate this into two halves:

1. From an economic perspective I think that allowing arrow enhancements of all kinds (numeric or special abilities) to stack with bow enhancements of all kinds is questionable.

2. As far as the numbers go, I don't have a problem allowing the stacking on damage rolls nearly as much as I have a problem allowing the stacking on attack rolls. To me allowing a +5 bow and a +5 arrow to stack to make a net total of +10 to attack is much more significant than the corresponding +10 to damage. I feel this way because HPs increase much more significantly than AC does.

If I was playing in a game where the economic factor was null and void because magical equipment couldn't be bought and there was a housrule that said arrow/bow enhncements stack only for the purpose of damage - I'd probably be opkay with that. The more I think about it the more I like the non-enhancable arrow solution, however.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The difference is that you can easily create a bunch of +5 arrows, using only a spell per day. In order to get those +1 everything arrows, you have to create them the hard way, spending hundreds of gil per arrow.

Of course, you can use spells to give arrows a flaming quality and the like, but they work just as well for swords.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The difference is that you can easily create a bunch of +5 arrows, using only a spell per day.

So then, you'd be in agreement that arrows and bows should stack in all cases if we remove GMW from the game?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

So then, you'd be in agreement that arrows and bows should stack in all cases if we remove GMW from the game?

I'd say keep GMW and don't let arrows stack.

 

[irdeggman]

I'm unclear on which example you mean, and I'm fairly certain some people just aren't getting how this works (despite several efforts to explain). Given access to enough special weapon abilities, stacking isn't really a hinderance to a smart archer (although, yes, he often does have to make choices instead of relying on the simple enhancement bonuses).

Let's see if we can lay it out for those who don't quite get it yet.

A weapon is limited to a total of +10 enhancements (non epic). Of these only +5 can be a true enhancement bonus (that is the +x to hit and +x to damage).


A bow can have +10 worth of enhancements (again at most +5 of true enhancement bonus).

An arrow can likewise have +10 in enhancments (again at most +5 of true enhancement bonus).


A bow grants all of its enhancements to the arrows it fires.

The enhancement bonuses (true) of ammunition and bows do not stack.

So a +5 bow with 3 different properties (that total to no more than +5 in bonuses) firing an arrow (with +10 worth of enhancements) will have its effects layered. That is the non-similar ones stack.

Now a weapon msut have at least a +1 enhancement bonuse in order to gain any other enhancements.

Therefor a +5 bow (with +5 worth of enhancements) will fire a +5 arrow (with +5 worth of enhancements) to yield an arrow with a +5 enahncement (+5 to hit/+5 to damage) and the non-similar +10 worth of enhancements.

Or a +5 bow (with +5 worth of enhancements) can fire a +1 arrow (with +9 worth of enhancements) which yields a fired arrow with a +5 enhancement (+5 to hit/+5 to damage) and +14 worth of non-similar enhancements.

Now composite bows also have a Str rating which applies to damage (and is not considered an enhancement) - melee weapons do not have anything similar to this that can apply.

An archer can fire a number of arrows based on his BAB and at range so that a melee combatant won't reach him until suffering through several rounds worth of attacks.

Now if the enhancement bonus of ammunition and bows was allowed to stack an archer could fire an arrow that has a +10 (+5 from bow and +5 from arrow) to hit and to damage and then he could add the damage from the str rating of a composite bow and he could affect targets at range (safe from melee attacks) as a full attack.

+10 to hit and damage is +5 more than a melee fighter can get with his weapon without adding in the str rating or the relative safety of the attack, etc.

Basically the fact that ammunition and bow no longer stack their enhancement bonus (for to hit and damage) is a reflection of how powerful the archer build was in 3.0. Almost no one is stating that the archer is not powerful as is (in 3.5) and yet some are arguing that they should be made even more powerful by allowing the enhancement bonus (to hit and damage) to stack (like they did in earlier editions).

 

[irdeggman]

What you are arguing here is that the special abilities are not actually equal to the enhancement bonus equal to the market modifier. While this may be a valid argument, it is one that which we must assume is not true (as I state previously). The reason why we must assume that is because then the problem is not with the archers, but with everything that uses those enhancements.

By the same argument then all feats are created equal - which we all know is patently not true (well at least a lot of us know that). All feats are useful but not equal.