Staff pricing question

[Kerrick]

Okay, I'm stymied. The rules for pricing staves (it's STAVES, not staffs) say:

The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the staff—375 gp × the level of the highest-level spell × the level of the caster, plus 75% of the value of the next most costly ability (281.25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster), plus one-half of the value of any other abilities (187.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster). Staffs are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.

If desired, a spell can be placed into the staff at only half the normal cost, but then activating that particular spell costs 2 charges from the staff. The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells.

The first part's pretty straightforward. Hell, even the second part's pretty easy to figure out - you divide the cost for the spell by the number of charges it uses. So... if this is the case, why don't any of the staves in the DMG follow this formula? Let's take the staff of earth and stone as an example, since it's only got two spells:

Passwall (1 charge): 5 (SL) x 11 (CL) x 375 = 20,625 gp

Move earth (1 charge): 4 (SL) x 11 (CL) x 281.25 = 12,375 gp

20,625 + 12,375 = 33,000 gp. The DMG price is 80,500 gp.

Or the staff of life:

Heal: 6 x 11 x 375 = 24,750 gp

Raise dead (1 charge): 5 x 11 x 281.25 = 15,468 +50,000 (for components) = 65,468

Total: 90,218 gp. DMG Price: 155,750 gp. (even if you used resurrection like it says, that only adds another 50K for a grand total of 140,218 gp).

But that's really a tangent. The real reason I'm writing this post is to ask how they priced the staff of power. My annoyance at the designers' apparent inability to follow their own rules followed, since I came up with a preliminary price of 63,720 gp without the "blow a charge to do double damage on a hit" and the retributive strike powers, and I checked a few other staves to see if I was doing it right, since it's been awhile since I messed with magic items.

The first power (blow a charge for double damage) I'd rate around a 3rd level spell, so that one's not hard to do... but what would the retributive strike ability cost?

 

[Pyrex]

Move Earth is Sor/Wiz 6, so it should look like:

6x11x375 = 24750
5x11x375 = 20625 * .75 = 10312.5

Total Creation Cost: 35,062.5gp, Market Value 70,125

Which, heh, still doesn't match the SRD. :\

I suspect that for the Staff of Power they pulled a number out of their posterior orifice.

The first power (blow a charge for double damage) I'd rate around a 3rd level spell, so that one's not hard to do... but what would the retributive strike ability cost?

Honestly I'd call that a 1st level spell, it's really not that great.

Then I'd cost the Retributive Strike as a 7th or 8th level 50-charge spell.

 

[Delta]

My annoyance at the designers' apparent inability to follow their own rules followed...

They're not rules, just guidelines. DMG, "Each of the magic items presented here was examined and modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point."

 

[Kerrick]

Move Earth is Sor/Wiz 6, so it should look like:

6x11x375 = 24750
5x11x375 = 20625 * .75 = 10312.5

Total Creation Cost: 35,062.5gp, Market Value 70,125

Which, heh, still doesn't match the SRD.

Oops. I actually looked that one up, too - I must've gotten it wrong in my head while I was writing it down.

Honestly I'd call that a 1st level spell, it's really not that great.

Then I'd cost the Retributive Strike as a 7th or 8th level 50-charge spell.

I was thinking about pricing that like true strike.. I guess that'd work too. 7th or 8th level sounds about right for retributive strike.

They're not rules, just guidelines. DMG, "Each of the magic items presented here was examined and modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point."

Yeah yeah. I figured they did some fudging on the staff of power due to its... power... but a staff of earth and stone isn't THAT useful. Even if they'd added 10% or 15%, you could probably tell, but these items don't have any discernable pattern of tweaking, which leads me to believe they priced them and just tacked on some extra. Which is great, if you don't ever plan for others to reverse-engineer things to see how they're put together.

I guess that's just a personal gripe of mine - I like a transparent system, where you can see how everything works, and the designers explain the hows and whys of their thinking. They've been moving toward that more lately, but the magic item system remains a huge mess.

 

[Mouseferatu]

5x11x375 = 20625 * .75 = 10312.5

Um, what?

You multiplied by .5, not .75.

5x11x375 = 20,625 x .75 = 15,468.75

Add that to 24,750, and you get 40,218.75.

Multiply that by 2, for market price, and you get 80,437.5.

At which point, it becomes clear that they simply rounded up to 80,500.

 

[Pyrex]

Um, what?

You multiplied by .5, not .75.

Oops. So I did.

Argh. I'm usually better at math than that.

 

[ElectricDragon]

On Staff of Power: Don't forget to add 16,600 for a +2 double weapon, 10,000 for a +2 Luck bonus to AC, and 8,000 for +2 Luck bonus to saves

And the plane shift power of the retributive strike power should be 7th level (I would figure it at full price even though it only works 50% of the time).

That gives a total of 225,850 if the retributive strike is 9th level and the powers are set at 17th level.

If you then give the plane shift power a 50% discount the price comes to: 209,115.625 gp. Very close to 211,000.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Kerrick]

Um, what?

You multiplied by .5, not .75.

5x11x375 = 20,625 x .75 = 15,468.75

Add that to 24,750, and you get 40,218.75.

Multiply that by 2, for market price, and you get 80,437.5.

Oy, I see now. LIke I said, it's been awhile since I've mesed around with magic items, but I've never seen this method used. It's a lot easier, IMO.

On Staff of Power: Don't forget to add 16,600 for a +2 double weapon, 10,000 for a +2 Luck bonus to AC, and 8,000 for +2 Luck bonus to saves

Forgot the extra 8,000 for the double weapon, but I got all that.

And the plane shift power of the retributive strike power should be 7th level (I would figure it at full price even though it only works 50% of the time).

I thought spells were always priced off the lowest level anyone could cast them?

That gives a total of 225,850 if the retributive strike is 9th level and the powers are set at 17th level.

The problem is, they're set at 15th level. Which means retributive strike is likely an 8th level power - about what Pyrex and I agreed on.

So lessee... retributive strike: 8 x 15 x 375 = 45,000 gp

Plane shift (we'll say L5): 5 x 15 x 375 = 28,125 x .75 = 21,093.75 x .5 (since it only works half the time) = 10,546 gp

All spells (I'll lump them together to save space, since they all use the .5 multiplier): 122,343.75 gp

Add that to the 34,000 for miscellaneous abilities, and we get a grand total of: 211,889 gp.

Technically, it's still wrong, though, because we forgot the "blow a charge to deal double damage" ability, and the fact that there are several powers at L5, all of equal cost - so ALL of them would get the .75 multiplier, not just plane shift. It's too much of a headache to try to figure out the proper price for this thing, though... all I wanted was the plane shift/retributive strike, and I got those. Thanks, guys.