Stalker0's Hero Point System (NEW VERSION: 1.1)

[Stalker0]

EDIT: Updated Version 1.1. See changelog at the bottom of the post for updates.

Stalker0’s Hero Point System Ver 1.1

Quick Introduction: Here's the 30 second summary of what this system does:
1) More frequent, more flexible action points: Hero Points are gained quicker than AP (one per encounter instead of milestone) and allow more options. However getting extra actions requires more points.
2) Can recharge powers during combat, and greater ability to overcome conditions: The two hallmarks of Hero points allow players to get recharge rolls (like monsters) and to grant them extra saving throws to overcome conditions.
3) Actions outside your turn: Extra actions with this system are more expensive than with normal Action Points, but you can take them outside your turn, granting more flexibility than normal.
4) Monsters get to play too: Elite and Solo monsters get some of the benefits of hero point use as well!


Replaces Action Points: This system is designed to overwrite the current AP system.

Gaining Hero Points: Players start a session with one hero point and gain an additional hero point at the end of each encounter. After an extended rest, hero points reset to 1.

Spending Hero Points: Hero points can only be spent during an encounter, not during a surprise round, and not until you have begun your first turn in initiative. Hero points require no action to use and can be spent even when it is not your turn; they can even be spent by a creature incapable of normal actions. Multiple hero points can be spent in the same round or encounter.

Hero Point Actions
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Costs Special
Moment of Clarity (PC only): A creature can immediately swap one of their unexpended active powers with a power from their reserves. Special: A player can use this ability whenever spending a hero point for another effect.(Designed in conjunction with my reserve power system, not included)

Costs 1 Point:

Focused Attack: You gain combat advantage on your next attack roll.

Power Surge (PC only): Give one attack or utility power the Recharge keyword (see below). This only applies to at-will or encounter powers. Effect lasts for the rest of the encounter. If this is done at the beginning of your turn, you can immediately roll the recharge roll.

Refuse the Grave (PC only): The creature gains a +5 bonus to his next death saving throw. Multiple hero points do not stack with this effect.

Saving Grace: The creature makes an immediate saving throw against one effect, even one that does not normally allow a saving throw.

Seize the Moment: You make an immediate recharge roll for any at-will/encounter utility or attack power (dailies with the recharge keyword also apply). The recharge roll is on a 5,6 unless the power has a better recharge rate. Special: This ability has no cost when used in conjunction with Second Wind, Total Defense, or Inspire Heroics (see below).


Costs 2 Points:

Heroic Action: The creature gains one standard, move, or minor action. Unlike a regular action, a heroic action can take place at any time in the initiative but cannot interrupt other actions (with the exception of movement). A creature’s initiative does not change due to using a heroic action. A creature incapable of normal actions can still take heroic actions.

Determined Assault: You can reroll one failed attack roll and get a +2 to the new attack roll.


Costs 4 Points

Greater Power Surge (PC Only): Give one daily utility or attack power the Recharge keyword (see below). Effect lasts for the rest of the encounter or until the power first recharges. If this is done at the beginning of your turn, you can immediately roll the recharge roll. [/sblock]

Recharging Powers
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Recharge Keyword
1) Power gains recharge “6”, however, recharge rolls are made even if the power is unexpended.
2) If an unexpended (or at will) power is recharged, the action required to use the power reduces by one the next time the power is used (standard -> move, move -> minor, minor -> free. Immediate and Opportunity actions are not affected). This bonus does not stack with itself.
3) Powers can only recharge during an encounter. All powers with the recharge keyword automatically recharge at the end of the encounter.

Second Wind/Total Defense (addition)
1) Use can immediately use the Seize the Moment hero point ability without spending a hero point.

Inspire Heroics: Standard Action
1) Choose one ally adjacent to you. That ally can immediately use the Seize the Moment hero point ability without spending a hero point.
3) You can give one of your hero points to your ally if you choose.
3) A character can be affected by multiple uses of Inspire Heroics
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Converting Action Points to Hero Points: Feats, Monsters, and Paragon Paths
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Elite/Solo Monsters
1) Instead of action points, Elite monsters receive 2 “villain” points, Solo monsters receive 3.
2) Monsters can use all hero point abilities except the ones noted as PC only.

Powers that give Action Points
1) A power that gives an action point now gives a hero point.
2) Hero points gained by powers can be spent just like regular hero points, and multiple points can be spent in the same encounter.

Feats/Paragon Paths and Hero Points:
1) Unless an exception is noted, spending a hero point is the same as spending an action point for feats and paragon path abilities that use action points.
2) If a feat or paragon path says you can spend an action point to take an extra action and gain an additional benefit, you can spend a hero point to get the normal hero point benefit and the benefit of the feat or paragon path.
3) If the feat or paragon path requires that you spend an action point and not gain an extra action, then you can spend a hero point to get the feat or paragon path’s benefit but do not gain the normal benefit of the hero point.
4) Note on Action Surge Feat: See below for how the feat has been changed.
5) Alteration to Paladin’s Astral Weapon Paragon Path ability
a. Astral Rejuvenation Action: Whenever spending a hero point, the Astral Weapon can choose to spend one additional hero point in order to regain one paladin encounter power he has already used. He gains no other benefit from spending this extra hero point.[/sblock]
Optional Additions:
The following are addendums to the Hero Point system. Each is completely optional and interchangeable, you can use as many or as few of them as you like.

Dramatic Moments
[sblock]There are moments in a battle when tensions run especially high. When a dramatic moment occurs, all party members, elite, and solo monsters receive 1 hero point. The hero point must be spent by the end of each character’s next turn. Some examples of heroic moments are as follows:
1) The first time in a combat a party member drops below 0.
2) Whenever a party member dies.
3) The first time in a combat a solo monster becomes bloodied.
4) Whenever an elite or solo monster is defeated.
5) Other moments, at the Dm’s discretion.
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New Feats that use Hero Points
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Action Surge (changed from the normal feat)
Prereq: Human
Benefit: Whenever you spend a hero point, you gain +2 to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Arcane Empowerment
Prereq: Arcane Power Source
Benefit: When an arcane encounter power that deals either Fire, Cold, Thunder, Lightning, Force, or Necrotic damage recharges, you can choose to gain no normal benefit from the recharge. Instead, you gain +3 to damage rolls for all attacks that do the same type of damage until the end of the encounter. Damage bonuses from multiple recharges stack.

Cunning Insight
Your intellect allows you to make a move at just the right time, for devastating results.
Prereq: Int 13+
Benefit: Whenever you hit an enemy with an attack made during a heroic action, the enemy suffers a -2 to defenses until the end of its next turn.

Dilettante of the World
Prereq: Half-Elf
Benefit: At the beginning of each encounter, choose one additional dilettante power. This power is considered to be expended at the beginning of the encounter. Whenever you recharge any power, you can instead choose to recharge this power.

Elder Dragon’s Power
Prereq: Dragonborn
Benefit: Your Dragon Breath power becomes eligible for recharging. Each time Dragon Breath recharges in an encounter (even if it’s unexpended), the area of the blast increases by 1.

Enduring Fortune
Prereq: Halfling
Benefit: Your Second Chance power becomes eligible for recharging. Each time Second Chance recharges in an encounter (even if it’s unexpended), the enemy suffers a cumulative -1 attack penalty to the rerolled attack.

Font of Vitality
Prereqs: Con 20+, Epic Tier
Benefit: When you spend a hero point to use the Power Surge ability, you can choose your “hitpoints” as a power. Whenever you successfully recharge this power, you can immediately spend a healing surge.

Greater Elven Accuracy
Prereq: Elf
You get nothing; Elven accuracy is good enough as is

Greater Glimpse of the Feywild
Prereq: Eladrin
Benefit: Your Fey Step power becomes eligible for recharging. Each time Fey Step recharges in an encounter (even if it’s unexpended), the distance the power can teleport increases by 2.

Grudge
Prereq: Tiefling
Benefit: Your Infernal Wrath power becomes eligible for recharging. Each time Infernal Wrath recharges in an encounter (even if it’s unexpended), the damage it deals increases by 2.

Martial Fury
Prereq: Martial Power Source
Benefit: Any time an at-will martial power recharges, you gain a +1 to attack rolls with all at-will powers for the rest of the encounter. The bonuses from additional recharges stack.

Savior’s Blessing
Benefit: If you succeed on a saving throw granted by the Saving Grace hero point ability, you receive +3 to future saving throws against the exact same effect you saved against. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter.

Sniper’s Attack
Benefit: If you spend a hero point to get a Focused Attack against a creature you already have combat advantage against, you gain an additional +1 to the attack roll, and your critical threat range increases by 1 (so a 20 crit range becomes 19-20, etc).

Stand Invincible
Prereqs: Savior’s Blessing, Epic Tier
Benefit: If you succeed on a saving throw granted by the Saving Grace hero point ability, for the rest of the encounter you get a saving throw at the beginning of your turn against the exact same effect you saved against (even if the effect normally does not allow a save). This effect lasts until the end of the encounter.
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Racial Adjustments using Hero Points
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Bold (in addition to normal): Whenever you spend a hero point, in addition to the normal benefit, you also gain a saving grace saving throw against one fear effect.

Cast Iron Stomach (in addition to normal): Whenever you spend a hero point, in addition to the normal benefit, you also gain a saving grace saving throw against one poison effect.

Eladrin Will (in addition to normal): Whenever you spend a hero point, in addition to the normal benefit, you also gain a saving grace saving throw against one charm effect.[/sblock]

Changelog (1.0 -> 1.1)
[sblock]1) Moment of Clarity no longer has a hero point cost, but can instead be used whenever a hero point is spent.
2) Power Surge and Seize the Moment now both work on utility powers.
3) Seize the Moment now gives an immediate recharge roll (not a bonus).
4) Determined Assault now gives a +2 to the rerolled attack roll.
5) Recharging an unexpended encounter or at will power now reduces the action cost of using that power instead of granting a +2 to the attack roll).
6) Total Defense and Inspire Heroics now grant a free Seize the Moment ability, instead of a bonus to recharge rolls.
7) Heroic Moments were renamed Dramatic Moments. During a dramatic moment, all PCs and important monsters receive a hero point that must be spent by the end of their next turn.
8) Several feats were given additional clarification.[/sblock]

 

[Stalker0]

Now the commentary. First thing to note is that while the system takes up a lot of space on the page, only half of it is the actual system. The rest are optional additions. The system itself is designed to be quick and clean to use.

1) Recharging powers. I currently use a point based power recharge system in my game and I've had good success with it (my Acheron system for those familiar with it). However, I have found that my players constantly forget how to use the system, and the tracking of all the points (both recharge and action points) has lead to some problems. My goal was to integrate the two systems together and streamline the mechanic so player's always know how to use the system. Like many others, I have experimented with using the normal monster recharge mechanics and put it in player's hands, but I have never been satisfied with the results.

With this system I believe I have found a way to incorporate recharging without making it dominant. Furthermore, normal recharging isn't too frequent unless you spend actions to make it so (second wind/total defense for example).

Lastly, just like in my Acheron system I wanted to give players a way to recharge daily powers, but I had to ensure it was costly enough that it wasn't the default option. At 4 hero points, its a very expensive option, but I have designed it so that the player always recharges the daily, even if it happens right at the end of the encounter, so the player never "wastes" his points.

The system also gives benefits to both active and passive players. Some players will want to recharge powers all the time, others will want to save their powers for saving graces and the like. Which brings me to my next point.

2) Overcoming conditions. One of the things I wanted to give players was more direct control over their actions in the face of peril, and that peril often comes in the form of conditions. Conditions can be great, but they can also be frustrating, both for a player and from a DM using a big elite or solo monster. I wanted both big monsters and players to have a way to overcome these effects, but in a way that wasn't too frequent. This created the saving grace mechanic, of which I am particularly pleased.

3) A part of the action, at any time. 4e suffers from the same problem 3e did in that once your turn is up it can sometimes take quite a while before your next turn....and that can cause people to become disinterested. Immediate actions help with that as it gives players a way to be a part of the action even when its not their turn. I wanted to use that in a grander way.

So I upped the ante on action points, and now allow players to take the extra action outside their normal turn. This opens up a whole new area of tactical thinking and team work combos. But at 2 hero points (and with a whole lot of fun down there at the 1 point level) its an expensive option. Ultimately I'm very curious to see how frequently this option is used. I keep going back and forth between thinking it is so awesome everyone will use it or its too expensive and no one will use it. I guess that's what playtesting is for

4) Allowing a bit of novaing now and then. In my game I currently give my players' 1 action point per encounter and allow multiple action points to be spent per encounter. The result has been some fun and interesting combos, but once in a while it is a little overwhelming. I decided with this system to meet it halfway. Multiple hero points can be spent in the same encounter, but they are a bit weaker as far as allowing actions then action points are. You can combo, but its more expensive. However, in return you have more flexibility in what you can do.

5) Action Points vs Hero Points: My goal was to make a hero point worth about 2/3 of an action point, yet be gained more frequently. The result is a boost in power somewhere between the normal system and granting one action point every encounter, with a large gain in flexibility. The hardest balance point on this is paragon path abilities that rely on spending action points. I have creating a general rule for this, and I'm sure certain PP's will require tweaking on an individual basis. I fixed the most blatant problem I saw (the Astral Weapon power), but feel free to note other issues with the hero point system and paragon paths.

6) Creating a little action in inaction: My group rarely uses the second wind and total defense options, and I wanted to add a little spice to these "passive" effects. So these actions give you a much greater chance to recharge powers.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry; my eyes glazed over almost instantly, and I'm no enemy of house rules.

Perhaps what is needed is a small introductory paragraph giving the quick low-down on the basics. Perhaps "I've replaced action points with hero points to be able to spend "half" points; 2 hero points is roughly equal to 1 AP; 4 hero points allows limited recharging of powers" (not even sure this is correct, treat as example only)

Something that allows the reader to start off with a known reference point with which to judge each new aspect of your rules?

 

[Zinovia]

It sounds like an intriguing concept Stalker0. Thanks for posting it. I like the thought of characters being able to do more heroic style things in combat, and recharging powers is always fun. Getting rid of status conditions is going to make fights less frustrating for both players and the DM when running a solo or elite.

My concern is the added complexity of the system. The way you have presented it is quite elegant, but there is still some additional tracking required. Which powers have a recharge option on them, and what's it currently valued at? My group is very slow when it comes to taking their turns, so adding more options and more rolls to make (rolling recharge dice), makes each turn take longer. On the other hand, your system allows actions on other people's turns, so perhaps it would keep the players more engaged between turns. Perhaps they might even decide what action they want to take *before* I remind them that it's their initiative count.

I'd be very interested to hear how your playtesting of this system goes and how powerful the various options turn out to be in actual play. Thanks for posting it - there are definitely some great ideas here.

 

[Stalker0]

Sorry; my eyes glazed over almost instantly, and I'm no enemy of house rules.

Perhaps what is needed is a small introductory paragraph giving the quick low-down on the basics. Perhaps "I've replaced action points with hero points to be able to spend "half" points; 2 hero points is roughly equal to 1 AP; 4 hero points allows limited recharging of powers" (not even sure this is correct, treat as example only)

Something that allows the reader to start off with a known reference point with which to judge each new aspect of your rules?

Took your advice Zapp, I put everything in spoiler tags to section it off and allow people to absorb it in piecemeal. I think its look cleaner and easier to read this way.

 

[CapnZapp]

Well, I still wish for you to summarize the system in your own words, so the reader's got the essentials before starting to read the laundry lists.

Perhaps one approach is to start off by selecting one 1p usage and one 2p usage and have that as your "simple" system (choosing the "extra action" 2p usage of course, to play up the similarities with action points).

Then when the reader understands the basics, he can look up your additional suggested uses.

What I mean is: I've started to read the article three times, and I'm still unsure of how exactly this compares to action points and how it's different from simply granting one action point every encounter.

You start off your post in a great way, with four design goals. Now show us how these goals have been accomplished, without forcing us to find out for ourselves!

 

[Eric Finley]

I like this a lot, but I'm a little troubled by the "until the end of the encounter" bonuses being handed out by things like Martial Fury and Arcane Empowerment. I would be much more inclined to make both of these a feat bonus (to limit stacking without other things) and not stackable with themselves, just to avoid potential runaway effects. Or to give them a more limited duration, or to have the triggering power then lose the Recharge keyword.
As an interesting alternative to the +2 for recharging an unexpended (or at-will) power: a "precharged" power has a decreased hero point cost to use as a heroic action - it costs 1 hero point instead of 2 to use that power out of turn, the next time you choose to do so.

Sieze the Moment should grant grant a +1 to the recharge roll (possibly this is not stackable with the +2 from Second Wind / Total Defense or Inspire Heroics).

Overall, I think this setup gives significantly more versatility and focused effectiveness to the PCs. To the point where, I think, it would need boosts to the encounter levels they faced, or else a more pervasive application of something similar to the monsters. Perhaps do this using the Dramatic Moment rules: At each dramatic moment, rather than granting everybody a +2 to recharge rolls, have everyone at the table (PCs and monsters alike) roll recharge with a +1 immediately. PCs without any Recharge powers get one recharge roll on a 6 for the power of their choice; monsters with encounter powers (even if they also have recharge powers) recharge those on a 6, except at DM's discretion (some powers are encounter powers simply because they wouldn't make sense to crop up twice in an encounter).

And if it were me, I'd give the Heroic Moment point to someone specific. The guy who dropped to 0; the character closest (both physically and relationship-wise) to the killed PC; the one who bloodied the solo or dealt the killing blow to the elite/solo.

Last thought is that it's always bugged me that 1AP buys me as little as a minor action (situationally useful at best) or as much as a standard action (which is what it's almost always used for). Why not split "Heroic Action" up into two tiers - "Heroic Act" (move or minor, 1 hero point), and "Heroic Deed" (standard, 2 hero points)?

Oh, and you need a term which abbreviates better than to "HP". I'm partial to "Glory" myself.

 

[Stalker0]

I like this a lot, but I'm a little troubled by the "until the end of the encounter" bonuses being handed out by things like Martial Fury and Arcane Empowerment. I would be much more inclined to make both of these a feat bonus (to limit stacking without other things) and not stackable with themselves, just to avoid potential runaway effects. Or to give them a more limited duration, or to have the triggering power then lose the Recharge keyword.

Actually, what your describing is the exact intent of those feats

Keep in mind that the recharge of a power in combat is actually pretty rare unless you spend the actions like inspire heroics or second wind to increase your recharge chances. The goal of these feats is for a martial type to increase his ability with at will attacks as the fight goes on. If he chooses to recharge at will powers instead of encounter powers then he gets this benefit as opposed to getting more access to his greater powers.

For arcane classes, they give up extra encounter powers to make a select group of their other powers stronger.

While once in a blue moon they may hit a ton of recharge rolls and get super powerful, in other cases they won't get as much as if they took out feats. So I would like to play it as is, and then see where it goes.

As an interesting alternative to the +2 for recharging an unexpended (or at-will) power: a "precharged" power has a decreased hero point cost to use as a heroic action - it costs 1 hero point instead of 2 to use that power out of turn, the next time you choose to do so.

I had consider a version of this myself, and I think its a good idea. Heck I might consider reducing the action cost of a "charged" power. So a standard action power might now be a move action while its charged up. This also would be a more useful mechanic than a +2 attack bonus for utility like powers that are opened up through feats (like fey step for example).

I'm still debating which idea I like more, just a straight action reduction or your idea of decreased hero point cost. Have to think about it more.

Sieze the Moment should grant grant a +1 to the recharge roll (possibly this is not stackable with the +2 from Second Wind / Total Defense or Inspire Heroics).

The goal of this ability is for players to get extra recharge rolls when there recharge is high. I doubt anyone would use this when they can only recharge on a 6. But after a second wind when its a 4,5,6...maybe. How about when they can recharge on a 2 or better? Now its looking a lot more useful. On the other hand, you mentioned +1 to recharge that doesn't stack with other abilities, and that could be useful for the times someone would want to make a recharge roll on a that 6 only power.

Keep in mind though, this is actually a great ability for elite and solo monsters with powerful recharge abilities.

I think I'll leave it as is, if playtesting shows its too weak I will use your suggestion.

Overall, I think this setup gives significantly more versatility and focused effectiveness to the PCs. To the point where, I think, it would need boosts to the encounter levels they faced, or else a more pervasive application of something similar to the monsters.

And if it were me, I'd give the Heroic Moment point to someone specific. The guy who dropped to 0; the character closest (both physically and relationship-wise) to the killed PC; the one who bloodied the solo or dealt the killing blow to the elite/solo.

In my current game I give my players one action point every fight and I give them recharge points as well. They are stronger than a normal party for sure, but not overwhelmingly so. I think this will be a playtest call, to see how much stronger the party seems and decide to recommend an increase in challenge or not.

My only real worry about power right now is the heroic moment area, I think +2 to all recharge rolls may be too strong, and it does favor the players. Your idea about letting monsters in on the fun could be useful.....perhaps specifically to elite and solo monsters. So instead of the heroic moment it is as you describe the "dramatic moment". The players and the big monsters all get cooler for a moment for some intense rounds of fighting. I'll think about this in more depth and perhaps will add something to the system.

Last thought is that it's always bugged me that 1AP buys me as little as a minor action (situationally useful at best) or as much as a standard action (which is what it's almost always used for). Why not split "Heroic Action" up into two tiers - "Heroic Act" (move or minor, 1 hero point), and "Heroic Deed" (standard, 2 hero points)?

I'm definitely considering this one. I may allow a "heroic action" as 1 point, its a move or a minor in your normal initiative. And then the "legendary action" which is 2 points, any action and outside your initiative. I'm hoping to playtest the system in a few days and I may make tweaks like this due to the results.

Thank you for the good feedback.

 

[Stalker0]

I've updated the System to 1.1 and I think cleaned up some of the gaps in the system.

I'll go through the changelog in this post:

1) Moment of Clarity no longer has a hero point cost, but can instead be used whenever a hero point is spent.

--Mainly for my players, they didn't think swapping powers was worth a hero point and I agreed, though I didn't want swapping to be done at will. This created a good compromise.

2) Power Surge and Seize the Moment now both work on utility powers.

--I see no reason not to allow utility powers to get in on the fun.

3) Seize the Moment now gives an immediate recharge roll (not a bonus).

--Mathematically this provides the same bonus as the +2 to a recharge roll did. But it occurs immediately so you don't have to track it. It also standardizes the recharge rolls into 6 or 5,6. So no more 4,5,6 or 3,4,5,6 or 2,3,4,5,6 to cause confusion.

4) Determined Assault now gives a +2 to the rerolled attack roll.

--Felt that 2 hero points was a little steep without a bit of an extra benefit.

5) Recharging an unexpended encounter or at will power now reduces the action cost of using that power instead of granting a +2 to the attack roll).

-- This helps for powers without attack rolls. It also makes recharging unexpended powers more enticing. You could recharge your favorite power, or try to recharge a fresh power to create a combo with other powers.

6) Total Defense and Inspire Heroics now grant a free Seize the Moment ability, instead of a bonus to recharge rolls.

--They now provide about the same benefit but with a quicker and cleaner mechanic.

7) Heroic Moments were renamed Dramatic Moments. During a dramatic moment, all PCs and important monsters receive a hero point that must be spent by the end of their next turn.

-- I liked the idea of giving monsters part of the fun of heroic moments. I also realized I didn't want to tie in recharging too much in the overall system. No players have a choice on what benefit to get, but it must be used in short term so you can't hord up hero points or anything like that.

8) Several feats were given additional clarification.

-- Nothing major here, just some language cleanup.

 

[Eric Finley]

Nice. I do think that since Hero points are much more plentiful than APs, even the revised Action Surge is stronger, and the various <X> Action paragon path abilities are much stronger. Since there's already a power discrepancy between the various action-point side benefits as is, some of these may need to be tweaked downward. Ditto warlords; they gain a significant boost with this ruleset and you may wish to scale other things down slightly (perhaps reduce the effectiveness of the various Tactics features by a point or so).

Why no love from Arcane Empowerment for Poison, Acid, Radiant or untyped? You make my Starlock sad. [On the other hand, you make single-element spellcasters in general happy, and Rod of the Dragonborn users ecstatic. I'm not sure that tying it to damage type is ideal, here, it would be nice to find some other thread to connect powers instead. But that's an ivory tower preference.]

Martial Fury still refers to the old benefit of recharging an unexpended power (+2 to hit).

There's a nice synergy there for Warlocks with Sacrifice to Caiphon; I don't think it's overpowered, but it makes precharging much more likely with those powers. Precharged Dreadful Word plus Dread Star plus Crown of Madness sustain = tasty.