Standing in the way of technology

Limper said:
You would have to pipe the smoke to the Paraplane of smoke... I think the denizens of the plane of air would get rather miffed if you pumped smoke into their plane, don't you?

Common sense tends to be uncommon.

I would rather lay the seeds for future conflict. :)

You are right- that would be the wise thing to do, but I like using Djinn whenever I get the chance. The plane of air gives that opportunity.

SD
 

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You are probably right about common sense. However the fear of the Extraplanar hurting that comes from not having it would weigh in heavily I think.
 

hmmm, the old tech v. magic debate. Pretty much hinges on how you define tech and the parameters of the conflict.

If the idea is that the elves are going to work against tech that harms nature then what the elves really need to work against are societies with poor ideas of resource management and the power/organization to really enforce those poor ideas.

If the elves can simply organize everyone who disagrees go after the opposing societies and win, then the question simply becomes one of
"Can the elves devise a system of education and organization that will keep the society stable and environmentally kosher?"

Human societies have only been able to keep such things together for at most a millenia and then mostly be accident. Elves could do it if they were willing to be really smart and oppresive.
 

WotC touched on this topic in their old "Greyhawk 2000" article.

Elves had their own nation that was closed to everyone else. They were also responsible for acts of eco-terrorism in other countries.

Dwarves, conversely, were a more open nation, but while they loved the advent of technology, they shunned magic more and more. When humans started in on technomagic items, the dwarves dug in their heels (the dwarves are the only ones to use nonmagical guns still while everyone else uses DiM guns - guns that magically dimensionally accelerate the bullet).

Somewhat oddly, dragons loved the advent of technomagic, and lead the world in what they produce in their home country of Ryujin (Japanese for "dragon people").
 

You could always go the Mage Conspiracy route, like in Yrth as depicted in GURPS Fantasy. Anyone who uses magic opposes technology because it gives too much power to the common folk. In that case, the mages had good reason to believe that technology would be bad for them. Humans were brought to the world by a 'banestorm', basically an interdimensional rift. They questioned some of the humans and didn't like what they heard about guns and such, which is what caused the mages to band together and oppose technology.

You now have wizard guilds trying to prevent the technological development, because they fear an erosion(sp?) in their power base. You have a few outside that group that also fight it, including the equivilent of the Luddites (sp?). If anyone with sufficient intelligence can learn magic, the best and the brightest are going to be fighting against technology.

Dragons should oppose technology because of the rapid changes it brings about. Dragons are not the most adaptable of creatures, they tend to build their power over centuries. Anything that causes rapid changes in technology is likely to be a threat to them.

Some could also be convinced to oppose it because of propoganda. I can see the orcs wanting to push war technology and others using this as proof that technology is evil. A lot of anime depicts technology as evil.
 

Who wants to stop technology?

First, there are the common labourers who spawned the Luddite movement. These people are kept alive only because they work in poor conditions for a little money with which to support their families. They fear that technology will put them out of work and out of food. Never underestimate hordes of starving peasants. (Extra points for pitchforks and flaming torches as they march on the factory.)

Second, there are the ecologists who fear environmental despoilment. This probably includes elves. However, elves (in Tolkein especially) have their own industries... they don't hurt nature, but everything they make shines with power. I think it was once described as 'not magic, and it confuses the elves when other races get all weak-kneed when they look at elven goods'. What does this mean? I think elves have their own resources, and the only reason they're not at the forefront of the happy industrial revolution is because it requires centuries of training and/or working to put this stuff together.

Third, there are the monsters that don't use tech, but stand to lose territory or power over it. Dragons especially wouldn't like this. If your common peasant-with-a-cannon decides that all dragons are evil (perhaps because he's been losing sheep to something with wings in the night?), then you're looking at a one-sided dragonwar, and the tech-users are in serious trouble. I think the monsters are the biggest threat to technology. A dragon getting on in years is invulnerable to ballista bolts, and if you put a shotgun against a Pit Fiend's head and pulled the trigger it wouldn't scratch him. (Both do 3d6 damage against DR 20 according to the DMG.) Grenades and bombs start to do damage, but explosives aside, I think the DMG laser rifle is the first thing that can scratch creatures of that power level, and look at the punishment one such creature can unload onto an entire army.

And let's not forget the jealous mages. They can get past high DR no questions with their powerful spells.

Frankly, I think that technology would either become a whole lot friendlier (possibly governed by dragon-enforced treaty) or become one side of a vicious, planet-scarring war. Here's one possible scenario about technology:

The gnomes invented it, the orcs refined it, and the humans perfected it. The Fuel Kingdoms, we'll call them, began a new age of empires, felling forests to build war fleets and house their burgeoning populations, not to mention find fuel for their fires. They burned fossil fuels and dug deep for coal.
The elves saw it coming, and told the humans in no uncertain terms to stay away from the deepest forest. So the humans left the elves alone; they knew from experience what happened when you angered an elder race.
Unfortunately, they didn't think too hard when they decided to make things safer for their citizens. The Dragon Patrols set out to rid the lands of monsters with high firepower - rifles, cart-mounted machine guns, even cannon. The flashpoint came when a copper dragon was killed for taking sheep in a remote valley - the locals warned the militia, but they wouldn't listen.
One hundred years later, things are bad... very bad. The dragons united against a common foe - technology. The technical nations in turn developed worse and worse weapons to protect themselves. Fire has claimed most of the fertile grounds of the world, and both the dragons and the technicals have been reduced to a mere handful of powerful combat groups. The elves have remained largely unscathed... but now they control the green regions of the world, and the dragons and technicals both want them for their own.

How's that for an idea?

Oh, and I saw Nausicaa recently (subtitled, of course - I've head bad things about the dub). That's got some interesting themes. If you've seen it, ask yourself: Who had the highest technology in the piece? The answer is quite interesting when compared to all this talk of war and conflict.
 

s/LaSH said:
Who wants to stop technology?

First, there are the common labourers who spawned the Luddite movement. These people are kept alive only because they work in poor conditions for a little money with which to support their families. They fear that technology will put them out of work and out of food. Never underestimate hordes of starving peasants. (Extra points for pitchforks and flaming torches as they march on the factory.)

But AFAIK, working conditions in most magical campaign settings aren't so bad. The conditions are more favourable due to magic, and this is what generally stagnates technology in magical settings.

Second, there are the ecologists who fear environmental despoilment. This probably includes elves. However, elves (in Tolkein especially) have their own industries... they don't hurt nature, but everything they make shines with power. I think it was once described as 'not magic, and it confuses the elves when other races get all weak-kneed when they look at elven goods'. What does this mean? I think elves have their own resources, and the only reason they're not at the forefront of the happy industrial revolution is because it requires centuries of training and/or working to put this stuff together.

Still holding to the belief that Humans and such can beat the Elves, and equally holding to the belief that Elves aren't really going to be against it since most pollution can be solved magically, and only harvesting forests needs to be controlled.

Third, there are the monsters that don't use tech, but stand to lose territory or power over it. Dragons especially wouldn't like this. If your common peasant-with-a-cannon decides that all dragons are evil (perhaps because he's been losing sheep to something with wings in the night?), then you're looking at a one-sided dragonwar, and the tech-users are in serious trouble.

GOOD dragons don't burn down cities. If they do, then as I previously mentioned, some very mad epic level humans will be visiting the dragons.

I think the monsters are the biggest threat to technology. A dragon getting on in years is invulnerable to ballista bolts, and if you put a shotgun against a Pit Fiend's head and pulled the trigger it wouldn't scratch him. (Both do 3d6 damage against DR 20 according to the DMG.) Grenades and bombs start to do damage, but explosives aside, I think the DMG laser rifle is the first thing that can scratch creatures of that power level, and look at the punishment one such creature can unload onto an entire army.

A Longsword does 1d8 damage. Characters with magical longswords can kill Pit Fiends. Characters with magical firearms can kill a pit fiend too.

And let's not forget the jealous mages. They can get past high DR no questions with their powerful spells.

Jealous? Would your PC Mage be so mad if he could carry a +10 handgonne for when he's expended his spells and the Enemy fighters are closing in?

Frankly, I think that technology would either become a whole lot friendlier (possibly governed by dragon-enforced treaty) or become one side of a vicious, planet-scarring war. Here's one possible scenario about technology:

If the Elves actually try to help technology with being eco-friendly, then everything will be OK. If they hinder it, more efficient eco-damaging way become more common, and hey presto! Planet Scarring War, millions of Dead elves, and Adamantite Machine-Gun toting Drow.

The gnomes invented it, the orcs refined it, and the humans perfected it. The Fuel Kingdoms, we'll call them, began a new age of empires, felling forests to build war fleets and house their burgeoning populations, not to mention find fuel for their fires. They burned fossil fuels and dug deep for coal.
The elves saw it coming, and told the humans in no uncertain terms to stay away from the deepest forest. So the humans left the elves alone; they knew from experience what happened when you angered an elder race.
Unfortunately, they didn't think too hard when they decided to make things safer for their citizens. The Dragon Patrols set out to rid the lands of monsters with high firepower - rifles, cart-mounted machine guns, even cannon. The flashpoint came when a copper dragon was killed for taking sheep in a remote valley - the locals warned the militia, but they wouldn't listen.
One hundred years later, things are bad... very bad. The dragons united against a common foe - technology. The technical nations in turn developed worse and worse weapons to protect themselves. Fire has claimed most of the fertile grounds of the world, and both the dragons and the technicals have been reduced to a mere handful of powerful combat groups. The elves have remained largely unscathed... but now they control the green regions of the world, and the dragons and technicals both want them for their own.

How's that for an idea?

Pretty good, but I still say the Epic Humans could kill any evil metallic dragons, which is of itself a silly idea to me.

Oh, and I saw Nausicaa recently (subtitled, of course - I've head bad things about the dub). That's got some interesting themes. If you've seen it, ask yourself: Who had the highest technology in the piece? The answer is quite interesting when compared to all this talk of war and conflict.
 
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Peter Paladin vs. Donald Drake

Peter Paladin who ate his Purple Paladin Crunches that morning approaches the lair of the EVIL Donald Drake Dragon. Along with his companions, Charles Cleric with his Fire extinguisher of endless water. Eddie Elf the deep woods sniper with his +5 .50 cal flaming sniper rife. William Wizard with his jet pack of flying, remote spy eyes, and staff of hand grenades. Robert Rogue with Robe of Electronic, Manual, Automatic lock picking.

Peter Paladin, “Everything one ready?”
Donald, “Harm on Hand. Dimensional Anchor up.”
William, “Wall of force over the exit. My remotes know it’s in there. Atomic batteries to power and turbines up to speed.”
Eddie, “Sightlines are clear. Night vision, low light vision, infrared and starlight scope says he sleeping.”
Robert, “I disable his bear trap below the welcome mat. I hear him snoring.”

Peter Paladin, “ Good. Now ready. Steady. HEY EVIL Drake we know you have been bad and NOT good for goodness sake.”

Donald Drake, “SNORE. Hum this is ridiculous. Can a fellow get a decade of sleep now and then? Go away! I gave at the office.”

Peter Paladin, “You are going down for slaying women and children. Raiding the council’s cattle ranch. Kill and eating Vestal Virgins. And destroying the Hoover Dam. Come out and we will kill you quickly and quietly.”

Donald Drake, “Gee whiz one on control sneeze and its murder, murder, murder. The cattle were my lunch speaking fee. The virgin was incorrectly labeled. Or you just mad because you can eat virgins. And the dam was blocking my water supply to poppy field and drinking water. Go away.”

Peter Paladin, “Go! Charge!”

The battle begins. They lose the rogue to the twenty claymores. The dragon retreats away from the gun toting adventures. They corner the evil beast in the back lair.

“Surrender!” offers Peter Paladin as his decides which blade of his rocket propelled sword (which he inherited from his father Talon), he would use.

Donald Drake Dragon grins evilly as he reaches both paws underneath his wings to pull the sawed off twenty millimeter auto cannons from their shoulder holsters. His tail pucks the super sized double barrel derringer shotgun from his ankle holster.

CENSOR CENSOR CENSOR.

“Gosh darn it. That wizard’s lighting bolt toasted my hard drive! I had my favorite hot halfling recipes on it. Hello ACME carpets cleaners? Yes. It appears I have a couple spots to remove from my Persian rug. Tomorrow. That is great and please just charge my account.”

Dragons have nothing to fear from gun toting adventurers. But adventurers do have fear gun toting dragons.
 

Sixchan said:
But AFAIK, working conditions in most magical campaign settings aren't so bad. The conditions are more favourable due to magic, and this is what generally stagnates technology in magical settings.
True. It all comes down to available magic, though. High-magic, you wouldn't see luddites... but you might see a similar anti-magic group if small minorities had magical processes that put people out of work. Depending on which side you're on, the masses might side with tech or magic.
GOOD dragons don't burn down cities. If they do, then as I previously mentioned, some very mad epic level humans will be visiting the dragons.
Can dragons earn epic levels? It seems that dragons should have a lot of XP from foolish (low-level) adventuring parties... and many many years in which to earn them. Just a thought.
A Longsword does 1d8 damage. Characters with magical longswords can kill Pit Fiends. Characters with magical firearms can kill a pit fiend too.
True. Then again, a pit fiend has built-in weaponry that makes a magical firearm look pathetic... fireball at 17th level at will, for example. And nullifying magical abilities with antimagic shells nullifies the firearms too. I suppose firearms do make it a little easier, so I defer on this point... it's just that firearms aren't as much of a threat as some might think.
Jealous? Would your PC Mage be so mad if he could carry a +10 handgonne for when he's expended his spells and the Enemy fighters are closing in?
If the enemy fighters have +10 handgonnes too, then jealousy is the least of his worries. Ever walk up to Elminster and say, "Teach me how to cast meteor storm!"? Technological weapons would be hoarded by the magi just like spells, IMHO.
Pretty good, but I still say the Epic Humans could kill any evil metallic dragons, which is of itself a silly idea to me.
Only evil metallics without epic levels themselves. I'd just like to make that point extra-clear.
 

jasper said:
Peter Paladin vs. Donald Drake

<snip>

Dragons have nothing to fear from gun toting adventurers. But adventurers do have fear gun toting dragons.

Right. So, umm...why are the dragons fighting on the side of the anti-tech people if they like the idea of using guns.

Originally posted by s/LaSH
Can dragons earn epic levels? It seems that dragons should have a lot of XP from foolish (low-level) adventuring parties... and many many years in which to earn them. Just a thought.

I don't see why not, but generally the epic level PCs still win in D&D.

If the enemy fighters have +10 handgonnes too, then jealousy is the least of his worries. Ever walk up to Elminster and say, "Teach me how to cast meteor storm!"? Technological weapons would be hoarded by the magi just like spells, IMHO.

Well, I guess. But with technology comes better education systems, and Intelligence and access to materials is all you need to be a wizard, right? Okay, so evil mages might be against it, but I can't see the good ones honestly wanting to stop people from bettering their lives. Once it gets off the ground, there'll be a lot more Mages.

Only evil metallics without epic levels themselves. I'd just like to make that point extra-clear.

But I wasn't aware there were evil metallics, since metallics are, by definition, good dragons.
 

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