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Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I'm not sure that's really fair, is it? I think you're confusing toxic fan behavior, which can take many forms, with what people like.
No, I am not confusing things. I have just seen so much ill will generated over the years by canon-angst that I have come to classify it as toxic in and of itself.

I have come to view canon and continuity like the rules and grammar of language - you follow it in general, but when it gets in the way, you violate it for sake of having a good piece.
 

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MarkB

Legend
Actually, unless I completely misremember the episode, it's the other way around. Picard goes to that planet to hire a samurai nun, because they're the best fighters in the galaxy, and finds out the kid has not been adopted but instead trained to be a male nun samurai. Cue the absent father storyline. And by the way Picard has plenty of people who would never betray him and can fire a weapon.
You may have missed some of the subtext. That's the reason that Picard gave to Raffi. It may even be what he was telling himself. But it was pretty clear that one of the major reasons he went back there was because he'd essentially abandoned a young boy who he'd befriended, and was looking for closure.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
No, I am not confusing things. I have just seen so much ill will generated over the years by canon-angst that I have come to classify it as toxic in and of itself.

I have come to view canon and continuity like the rules and grammar of language - you follow it in general, but when it gets in the way, you violate it for sake of having a good piece.
I think you're confusing cause and effect; the symptom and the disease.

People who have unsavory or toxic opinions will often retreat into neutral-seeming criteria.

"It's not that I'm an elitist; I just believe in proper English."
"It's not that I hate the poor; I just believe in table manners."
"It's not that I dislike women; I just want proper decorum to be shown at Augusta."


...and so on. The toxicity doesn't come from people that love canon; it is coming from something else.

But that doesn't mean that canon and continuity are worthless. In fact, quite the opposite. Entire empires of IP are built on it. Books, guides, encyclopedias. It is rather ungenerous to ask that people devote their time and their money to really delving into understanding something, and then, after they do, say ... "Ha! Sucker. Only nerds and stupid people care about canon."

Like I said. It's ungenerous.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
I am sorry, but I have so little sympathy for entitled fan behavior at this point that to me this is more an argument in favor of defying continuity, rather than against it.
If we want to unpack this a bit more, it's not merely ungenerous. It's spiteful.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
With some of these issues, like the Federation's behavior in Picard or rougher aspects of the Rebel Alliance in Rogue One, there are fans who do consider them transformative. I think we both disagree with that, but there are plenty of fans who are characterizing those things as slaps in the face (to more or less use your term). So where do we draw the lines on what really are slaps in the face and what aren't?
Sometimes it's easy to see what's a bridge too far. Other times, not so much.

The Federation has been infiltrated before. Hell, sometimes I think that they have no internal security at all. I think that if the Federation doesn't rebound from the Zhat Vash infiltration and become more the organization that we recognize, as a result, then I would say that's a bridge too far. I suppose we find it in the destination, rather than the journey.
 

Mallus

Hero
I think that's not exactly the right take on this. It's not that these people mean less to him, but he means less to them. He doesn't want to ask his former crew members because they'd join him out of a sense of personal loyalty, even love, regardless of the merit of the mission. He doesn't want that since it could get them all killed. He ultimately wants people he can convince this mission is a worthwhile thing to do in and of itself, not because of their personal sentiment for him.
You're absolutely right, I should have mentioned that side of it, too. But I still think both things are true.

Picard is willing to risk Raffi Musiker's life and not the Riker-Troi's. And while Raffii has more than one reason for going along, like the chance to prove the Romulan conspiracy is real, she also goes out of love for Picard. Which is openly stated in the final episode, but kinda obvious throughout. And Picard knows this. A big part of the show is Picard wrestling with the idea of how or even if he can still be the man that has this effect on people.

I really like the idea the show was saying old age makes people, even good people, a little ruthless & manipulative, out of necessity. It seems pretty honest.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
You were right. They did look mainly like good-looking white people with little facial bumps and patterns. And the reason had a lot more to do with budget than any intention of how to portray aliens. It's why the Star Trek: The Animated Series was finally able to have non-human crew members (other than Spock) like Lieutenants M'Ress and Arex. With animation, the special effects budget isn't a burden.

One of the nice things about improvements in technology and better budgets is better aliens.
What, white actors were cheaper to hire than people-of-color? Most of the "rubber forehead" aliens in Star Trek's long history have been portrayed by white actors. That's got nothing to do with budget.

My view is, that as progressive as Star Trek has always been, casting has been very "white" with token diversity. Especially when casting ventured beyond the bridge officers to supporting characters, human and alien. Casting with diversity, with the leads and supporting actors, has gotten better and better with each series, and Discovery and Picard stepped it up even more. So we are making good progress.

It represents an institutional bias in Hollywood. It's not cheaper to hire white actors, but it is often easier. Effort was made to make the main cast diverse in each series, but the supporting cast less so.

I don't know, but I've always wondered . . . . if there was ever a fear of casting POC as aliens and generating a backlash from minority groups. I'm not saying there would have been a backlash, just wondering if the casting directors had that worry . . . .
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
Sometimes it's easy to see what's a bridge too far. Other times, not so much.

The Federation has been infiltrated before. Hell, sometimes I think that they have no internal security at all. I think that if the Federation doesn't rebound from the Zhat Vash infiltration and become more the organization that we recognize, as a result, then I would say that's a bridge too far. I suppose we find it in the destination, rather than the journey.
Yeah, when fans started crying about the evil Federation in both ST: Discovery and ST: Picard, my thought was, "Have you ever watched Next Gen or DS9?!?!" :)

I just finished a Next Gen re-watch, and every time somebody showed up in an admiral's uniform I got suspicious they were corrupt, incompetent, uncaring about civilians, or at least big ol' jerks.

I think a major difference is that in Next Gen, the corrupt admiral was gone and dealt with by the episode's end. In new-Trek, they remain foils and antagonists for an entire season!
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
You're absolutely right, I should have mentioned that side of it, too. But I still think both things are true.

Picard is willing to risk Raffi Musiker's life and not the Riker-Troi's. And while Raffii has more than one reason for going along, like the chance to prove the Romulan conspiracy is real, she also goes out of love for Picard. Which is openly stated in the final episode, but kinda obvious throughout. And Picard knows this. A big part of the show is Picard wrestling with the idea of how or even if he can still be the man that has this effect on people.

I really like the idea the show was saying old age makes people, even good people, a little ruthless & manipulative, out of necessity. It seems pretty honest.
The "new" old Picard is better than the "old" old Picard from the Season 7 finale. That old Picard was super-crotchety and very manipulative of his friends because he knew he was right, despite the fact he was suffering from a degenerative brain disorder. And of course, by episode's end, he was proven right all along . . . .
 

MarkB

Legend
I don't know, but I've always wondered . . . . if there was ever a fear of casting POC as aliens and generating a backlash from minority groups. I'm not saying there would have been a backlash, just wondering if the casting directors had that worry . . . .
More likely, they were worried that it might be confusing for their cultural/racial-stereotype-of-the-week alien to actually be played by someone of another culture or race. How would their audience know which stereotype to assume for that character?
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I don't know, but I've always wondered . . . . if there was ever a fear of casting POC as aliens and generating a backlash from minority groups. I'm not saying there would have been a backlash, just wondering if the casting directors had that worry . . . .
I heard (but have not seen direct examples) of Armin Shimmerman having to have some... delicate conversations about being a Jewish actor playing a greedy alien.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
I heard (but have not seen direct examples) of Armin Shimmerman having to have some... delicate conversations about being a Jewish actor playing a greedy alien.
I love Armin Shimmerman and what he did with the character of Quark . . . . but the Ferengi have always made me cringe, especially with the casting. DS9 did a lot to redeem some awful writing and casting choices of Next Gen with that alien species . . . .
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I am not interested in a conversation in which you repeatedly treat me like a person who has not bothered to examine their own position.
Okay. It is ended.

But I was trying to treat you like an intelligent person who was accidentally being ungenerous, and not a spiteful person who was being intolerant.
 


MrZeddaPiras

[insert something clever]
You may have missed some of the subtext. That's the reason that Picard gave to Raffi. It may even be what he was telling himself. But it was pretty clear that one of the major reasons he went back there was because he'd essentially abandoned a young boy who he'd befriended, and was looking for closure.
No, I did get that. But I was replying to another comment to say that Picard did not go to the planet to hire the kid nor did he hire him due to the kid’s devotion to him.
 


MrZeddaPiras

[insert something clever]
Yeah, when fans started crying about the evil Federation in both ST: Discovery and ST: Picard, my thought was, "Have you ever watched Next Gen or DS9?!?!"
I don't think the Federation was ever portrayed as evil, in new Trek or old. They used to be portrayed as an effective, rational and enlightened organization. Now they're kind of... moody, I guess.

I just finished a Next Gen re-watch, and every time somebody showed up in an admiral's uniform I got suspicious they were corrupt, incompetent, uncaring about civilians, or at least big ol' jerks.

I think a major difference is that in Next Gen, the corrupt admiral was gone and dealt with by the episode's end. In new-Trek, they remain foils and antagonists for an entire season!
That's a common narrative convention of Star Trek: the captain's chair is where a person can really make a difference, and higher-ups are politicians and bureaucrats that needs to be reminded the values Star Fleet uphold. Note that there are a number of situations where the opposite is true, and admirals need to remind captains that they're there to do a job and not to philosophy.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
That's a common narrative convention of Star Trek: the captain's chair is where a person can really make a difference, and higher-ups are politicians and bureaucrats that needs to be reminded the values Star Fleet uphold.
Interestingly, we wind up jumping straight over the period where Picard was himself an admiral...

I have to wonder if someone could work that out as an interesting novel or TV show - Star Trek: Admirals.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Umm, going with hand to hand weapons isn't really out of place in Star Trek is it? I mean, Klingons go in with knives and bat-leths (or however you spell that) pretty much every episode that features Klingons. Granted, fair enough, Romulan ninja is a bit out there, but, not really any further out there than most of the ideas.

I gotta echo the sentiment of "that's what you find out of place?"
Also, a stronger faster person with enough training absolutely can destroy someone with a gun as long as they start within quick sprinting difference.

So, Romulan assassins with melee weapons make sense. They aren’t as practical as snipers, but practicality has never actually been what primarily determined whether people do stuff. 🤷‍♂️
 

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