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Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
but they make just as much sense as they would in real life.
I mean... make sense in real life? Like Star Trek?

Star Trek has always been complete nonsense. We enjoy it nevertheless. But Q, and American 1920s gangster planets, and Roman planets, and Tribbles, and Apollo, and "why does God need a starship?", And Abraham Lincoln vs Ghenghis Khan, and Dr. Crusher falling in love with a ghost, and 'Spock's Brain' fergoodnesssake... and, well everything.

None of Star Trek makes sense in real life. I'm curious why your line is somebody in Picard using a sword?

SuluTheNakedTime.jpg
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I am looking at it from the perspective of someone who just saw a prediction that failure to hold to continuity is a problem. Pretty clearly a "use continuity as a constraint" situation.

I agree that Enterprise squandered its opportunities until Manny Coto got the reins, but by then it was too late. That being said... having based its story on something from a FASA game would not have been a better choice. So, I don't think that claiming third-party story ideas are particularly grand holds here.
Seasons 1 and 2 were also excellent, the show had about a single season worth of bad episodes.
 

MrZeddaPiras

[insert something clever]
I mean... make sense in real life? Like Star Trek?

Star Trek has always been complete nonsense. We enjoy it nevertheless. But Q, and American 1920s gangster planets, and Roman planets, and Tribbles, and Apollo, and "why does God need a starship?", And Abraham Lincoln vs Ghenghis Khan, and Dr. Crusher falling in love with a ghost, and 'Spock's Brain' fergoodnesssake... and, well everything.

None of Star Trek makes sense in real life. I'm curious why your line is somebody in Picard using a sword?
I'm not drawing any line. Stuff in Star Trek is weird, and some is awesome weird and some just bad, like Spock's Brain. But Picard travels to some planet for the sole purpose of hiring muscle for his mission, and that's someone who's good with a sword. In a setting where ray guns are the norm. That's a very different kind of not making sense. There's nothing inventive or weird there, just some pretty lazy writing to get swordplay scenes in the series. And by the way, I actually think that a lot of Star Trek kind of makes sense in real life.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I'm not drawing any line. Stuff in Star Trek is weird, and some is awesome weird and some just bad, like Spock's Brain. But Picard travels to some planet for the sole purpose of hiring muscle for his mission, and that's someone who's good with a sword. In a setting where ray guns are the norm. That's a very different kind of not making sense. There's nothing inventive or weird there, just some pretty lazy writing to get swordplay scenes in the series. And by the way, I actually think that a lot of Star Trek kind of makes sense in real life.
I mean, OK? You just repeated yourself; I understood the first time. You think a guy in Picard using a sword makes no sense, but you're OK with all that other stuff. I mean, I don't know where we go from there, as we don't share any common ground at all. I don't know why, after 50 years of Star Trek not making sense, we suddenly demand it has to make sense?

You can like one and not the other. I have no problem with that (though I might disagree with your taste). But why not just say that, rather than struggling to justify logically how one is different to the other, when -- while they may be different in some ephemeral taste thing that doesn't speak to you -- they're emphatically not different in the ways you say they are? Picking "making sense" as your differentiator is just nonsensical. It never made sense, it still doesn't. It's Star Trek.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The Klingons from Discovery Season 1 definitely have a new aesthetic and were definitely one of the controversial elements of the show. But, um, it certainly isn't the first time the Klingons got a redesign, and its relatively mild compared to the first one!
So, I have an issue with the redesign that is very relevant to it being a TV show, but it isn't just the chosen asethetic.

They have so much prosthetic on that the actors have a very hard time expressing emotion! On top of this, their choice of language delivery also (to a human ear) removes a lot of emotional content. Yes, they are aliens, but in a TV show, we need the people to be able to act in whatever they are wearing. I bet the redesign would have been better accepted if they'd given this higher priority in the design.
 


Dire Bare

Legend
Supporter
So, I have an issue with the redesign that is very relevant to it being a TV show, but it isn't just the chosen asethetic.

They have so much prosthetic on that the actors have a very hard time expressing emotion! On top of this, their choice of language delivery also (to a human ear) removes a lot of emotional content. Yes, they are aliens, but in a TV show, we need the people to be able to act in whatever they are wearing. I bet the redesign would have been better accepted if they'd given this higher priority in the design.
Maybe the producers felt that since they were speaking Klingon anyway, why worry about being able to clearly speak through the prosthetics? :) Of course, they should have realized a significant part of the fanbase speaks fluent Klingon!
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
That's a pretty cool idea. I'm sure the Trek "expanded universe" is full of abandoned-but-neat ideas!

I don't know the details and too lazy to seek it out, but I'm fairly sure there is a canon or semi-canon explanation that explains the changes as some sort of genetic virus that swept through Klingon worlds during TOS era changing Klingons to look more human.

Really, it's all too much work! :) I like how they treated it in the DS9 episode when our heroes go back in time to Kirk's Enterprise and encounter all sorts of anachronisms, including Klingons who look very different from Worf! His response? "We don't talk about it." :)

Lately I've been a bit fascinated by the Trek "expanded universe" of novels and comics. Since none of these are ever considered canon, they often match up with canon when they are first published, but then become out-of-date as TV and movie Trek continues to expand. Newer novels/comics then ignore the elements of older books/comics, only themselves becoming out-of-sync with canon over time. So, if you went and read the thousands of Trek novels and comics that have been published over the decades they would not only be wildly inconsistent with canon, but even with each other! Nothing wrong with that, just interesting!
Another funny thing; the stuff from the FASA games, the Star Trek RPG and the space combat board game, were actually considered to be canon by mutual agreement and licensing. Until that was recently erased.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Another funny thing; the stuff from the FASA games, the Star Trek RPG and the space combat board game, were actually considered to be canon by mutual agreement and licensing. Until that was recently erased.
I love all that stuff. I have it all on my shelves. I honestly think it's 60% of what 'Star Trek' is to me.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Maybe the producers felt that since they were speaking Klingon anyway, why worry about being able to clearly speak through the prosthetics? :) Of course, they should have realized a significant part of the fanbase speaks fluent Klingon!
Well, I didn't care so much about the Klingon diction. I wanted more tonal differences in the speech, which they could not deliver in all that stuff.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Another funny thing; the stuff from the FASA games, the Star Trek RPG and the space combat board game, were actually considered to be canon by mutual agreement and licensing. Until that was recently erased.
Yeah, well, I kind of think erasing that was appropriate. Having a whole bunch of cannon that most of the fans has never seen? Bad idea.
 

Hussar

Legend
Umm, going with hand to hand weapons isn't really out of place in Star Trek is it? I mean, Klingons go in with knives and bat-leths (or however you spell that) pretty much every episode that features Klingons. Granted, fair enough, Romulan ninja is a bit out there, but, not really any further out there than most of the ideas.

I gotta echo the sentiment of "that's what you find out of place?"
 

MrZeddaPiras

[insert something clever]
Umm, going with hand to hand weapons isn't really out of place in Star Trek is it? I mean, Klingons go in with knives and bat-leths (or however you spell that) pretty much every episode that features Klingons. Granted, fair enough, Romulan ninja is a bit out there, but, not really any further out there than most of the ideas.

I gotta echo the sentiment of "that's what you find out of place?"
I find out of place a whole bunch of things, I don't know why this one got picked on :sneaky: And again, I have no problems with melee weapons per se. It's the "let's go hire a samurai" idea I don't buy.
 

MrZeddaPiras

[insert something clever]
I mean, OK? You just repeated yourself; I understood the first time. You think a guy in Picard using a sword makes no sense, but you're OK with all that other stuff. I mean, I don't know where we go from there, as we don't share any common ground at all. I don't know why, after 50 years of Star Trek not making sense, we suddenly demand it has to make sense?

You can like one and not the other. I have no problem with that (though I might disagree with your taste). But why not just say that, rather than struggling to justify logically how one is different to the other, when -- while they may be different in some ephemeral taste thing that doesn't speak to you -- they're emphatically not different in the ways you say they are? Picking "making sense" as your differentiator is just nonsensical. It never made sense, it still doesn't. It's Star Trek.
I'm sorry, I thought it was clear I don't like most choices they made in Picard and Disco. And that doesn't help my suspension of disbelief. But can we agree they are tonal changes? That Apollo's Temple and samurais for hire are not the same kind of thing? And I don't agree that Star Trek was always a bunch of nonsense. It had a pretty consistent narrative pact, and this is not it. Then of course, if our benchmark is Spock's Brain or Dr Crusher's Ghost Lover, we can never complain of anything ever again, though I believe that most of Kurtzman's stuff is in that ballpark in terms of quality.
 


trappedslider

Adventurer
"Narrative pact"? Now, there's a term I'm not familiar with. What does it mean?
This what I found via google
The author wants to tell me a story and I agree to hear it. I agree to suspend my disbelief, and they agree to be honest with me when telling me their story.
 

MrZeddaPiras

[insert something clever]
"Narrative pact"? Now, there's a term I'm not familiar with. What does it mean?
Yes, apologies, I just realized the term doesn't have much currency outside my home country. The narrative pact is defined as "an unspoken agreement by which the reader suspends partially and temporarily their critical faculties to accept as true a story they know to be largely fictitious." Basically, the author buys your suspension of disbelief by making a claim for internal consistency and sticking to it. Most times a breach of the narrative pact is what happens when a show "jumps the shark". GoT after season 4. Anything by Steven Moffat after three seasons. Walking Dead with Negan. Star Trek with Klingons as Talibans, casual murdering of villains and, well... samurais. Note that this has very little to do with adherence to canon.
 

Ryujin

Adventurer
Yeah, well, I kind of think erasing that was appropriate. Having a whole bunch of cannon that most of the fans has never seen? Bad idea.
And I would say that eliminating a whole bunch of canon that was frequently based on references from the original series and TOS movies, that fans could be introduced to, was a massive lost opportunity.
 

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