Star Wars: Credo of the Grey Jedi . . . I chose something else!

[hobgoblin]

hmm, i never recall yoda using force lightning. but then again i have only watched either of the new movies 1 time iirc.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Oddly, Yoda's used Force Lightning as a first method of attack himself in one or two of the movies, as far as I recall. Plus, I think that he's considered one of the ultimate "Masters of the Light Side" in the entire canon. Therefore, it stands to reason that Jedi can use Force Lightning in the right situations. Most typically, in a situation where electricity is needed. Such as.. destroying heavily armored droids that are resistant to lightsaber damage.

What you're thinking of was not him using Force Lightning, but reflecting it and absorbing it. Not once does Yoda actually produce it himself.

And Force Lightning is not actually electricity. It is the Force, corrupted and manipulated to cause pain/harm.

If electricity is necessary to down droids, rip a nearby powersource with the Force and hit them with THAT. Or Force Push. Or even use a blaster. There are many, many options, and a Jedi(or any person considering themself a Light Sider) should never, ever resort to any of the Dark Side skills.

More technically, a light-side user simply submits to the Force, but a dark-side user makes it submit to their will. That's the only listed difference. Most Dark Side users are evil, but there are Dark Jedi who abandon the Jedi laws against using the Dark Side. There aren't any listed Light Side Sith, necessarily, but the concept of Light and Dark can be a bit more neutral. I consider it more Creation/Destruction rather than Good/Evil or Natural/Corruption. Light-Side users tend to do more creating of things; Dark-Side users tend to focus more heavily on destruction. This means that Light users will band together more often, as they are more willing to create a larger entity, but Dark users tend to fracture, as their tendencies towards destruction cause problems for organization. (However, they are perfectly OK with ruling non-Force-sensitives) When they don't split apart, they tend to get involved in internecine infighting and politics. (All of the known Sith seem to do this)

Exactly why Light Side =/= Jedi and Dark Sider =/= Sith. However, it is very well defined in all of Star Wars lore that even a small amount of Dark Side use is corrupting...even if it takes time.

And there are actually many cases of Dark Jedi working together. See the ancient Sith Empire before the Battle of Ruusan. An Empire of 'true' Sith, all with Dark Side abilities. The reason you don't see this later is because of the problems that developed from multiple powerhungry Sith after the Battle of Ruusan...which is when Darth Bane started the "Rule of Two". So, if there's only two 'true' Sith, then there aren't many to band together.

As for Dark Siders in general, there really aren't many overall. But they do tend to develop in cults of sorts, so its still very group based...but there's definitely more backstabbing, etc involved.

I would argue the Natural/Corruption goes on in terms of the Yuuzhan Vong. Contrast the Force-sensitive races that remain somewhat in their 'natural' state vs. the Vong, who can't use the Force at all, and 'corrupt' everything they touch with biological weapons.

The Vong is actually an entirely different situation.

If you've finished the NJO then you know that

Spoiler

the Vong had the Force taken from them by Zonoma Sekot...much like Nomi Sunrider stripped Ulic Qel'Droma of the Force in the old Tales of the Jedi comics.

They aren't a corrupting influence on their own, and their technology is not actually evil or Dark Side at all. Instead...its nothing. The lack of Dark OR Light. i.e. An enitirely different thing.

 

[Taraxia]

[sblock]What exactly are you talking about?

And actually, her attitude was more along the lines that helping people was to weaken them. People have to face their problems on their own if they wish to gain strength and grow, and that holding their hands just prevents them from achieving their full potential. A point of view that is worthy of some consideration. The Sith are about gaining power for the sake of power, a view Kreia didn't follow.

And you do realize that her ultimate goal was to destroy the force?[/sblock]

[sblock]I was making a stupid drug-based analogy to try to explain what Kreia's Grey Jedi powers derive from and how she herself "reads" in terms of Light Side/Dark Side balance. Frankly I think she was always more Dark than Light -- more Darth Traya -- all along, but she was able to keep that cloaked using her mastery of mental manipulation.

And yeah, she wants to destroy the Force, or allow the Exile to break free of the Force's control and from there let the Force be destroyed, or... or... *something*. It's not entirely clear. KotOR 2 is a game with much of its ending text removed. She wants to destroy the Force entirely because she's had such bad experiences with *all* manifestations of Force power. The Light Side and the Dark Side -- she's burned out on them both. She wants negation, freedom. A la a drug addict who's gone past being able to feel euphoria from any sort of drug use and has begun to become self-destructive and despair-filled because they've destroyed their ability to experience any pleasurable sensation at all.

As for the "people face things on their own, bla bla bla", that's clearly more a Sith than a Jedi philosophy. Geez, Atton Rand comes out and says it at the end of the game, and as a former Sith Assassin he really ought to know. She's not a "true" Sith -- she doesn't work for the typical Sith goal of purely increasing one's power -- but that doesn't make her not Dark. She describes herself as Darth Traya, the Betrayer, and names Betrayal as her own greatest attribute.

After all, the point of the KotOR 2 era is that the regular Sith, under Revan and Malak, are gone, and we've got *new* Sith who follow strange, self-destructive philosophies. Darth Nihilus wants nothing but to suck up all life into himself and leave the whole universe dead. Darth Sion wants nothing but to torture and cause suffering for the sake of causing pain -- himself so filled with pain and torment that the only pleasure he can feel is from spite. And Darth Traya wants to destroy the Force itself -- and her own power and, ultimately, herself with it -- out of a sheer emotional desire to destroy the purpose and meaning and interconnectedness the Force provides in order to establish her brand of "freedom". (Does she know for sure severing the Force through echoes on the large scale won't kill everyone, or plunge everyone into a deep depression, or create a future of endless war and suffering? No. But she's willing to take the risk just because she hates the Force so much.)[/sblock]

Actually, you're one hundred percent wrong about this. A game bearing the Star Wars label is considered to be just as canon as any of the EU novels.

Yes and no. Canon is fuzzy in a game if for no other reason than that it's interactive, and each player's play experience creates a different order of events, not all of which can be the canonical one. At the very basic level, Revan's sex and whether Revan turned to the Dark or the Light are quite fundamental facts in the history of the Star Wars universe (since they determine whether Revan was Bastila's or Carth's lover, etc.), and yet after playing both games all you can say about either of those is that they're "indeterminate".

And the whole idea of dark side powers strikes me as idiocy. Why is it okay to cut off a guy's limbs with your lightsaber, but if you zap him with force lightning, you're on the path to the dark side?

Then the whole idea of the Force, and many of the basic assumptions of Star Wars, strike you as idiocy.

The point of the Force is that it *is* mystical and tied directly to one's emotions and one's psychological state. It isn't just another kind of "science", a simple physical force you can control. There are some manifestations of the Force directly linked to positive mental states -- empathy, calm, compassion -- and some that are directly linked to negative ones -- anger, hatred, schadenfreude, spite. The manifestation of Force Lightning is clearly the latter. (Keep in mind that it *is* so strongly linked to the Dark Side that, according to the novelizations, the Jedi of the prequel era, and Luke in the OT, were *shocked* and *terrified* to see the Force Lightning -- they didn't even know it was possible, because it involved using mental states they weren't aware of. Long-lived Yoda, who'd seen earlier eras when the Dark Side was stronger, was the exception.)

 

[Corvidae]

Power, adventure, a jedi craves not these things

In my opinion, choosing not to follow the light side is the path to the dark side. Desiring the powers that the dark side has is immediately a path to the dark side. A jedi is meant to seperate himself or herself from desire, and especially desire for power, so desiring the powers of the dark side would immediately draw the jedi to the dark side.

In addition, not making a decision, IS a decision. Even if you wanted to walk the line, you would not be choosing good, and therefore you would be moving toward the darkside. This is with some philosophy that evil alone does not exist, it is simply the absence of good, like dark is not a thing, but rather is the absence of light.

So there is no way to walk the line, you must choose.

I think probably the closest thing to a grey jedi would be someone like Mace Windu, who traveled the light side, and attempted to do good, but also expiramented with things that some would consider dark. (Mace windu created a lightsaber fighting style that, it seems to me, was based on instinct and intuition, rather than peace and using the force, so was flirting with the dark side of emotion)

I think that is the closest you can get to a gray jedi.

hope this helps

John

 

[LostSoul]

In the games I used to play, yeah, I think there was a grey side to things.

I had a tendency to offer up Dark Side points like candy. "If you call on the Dark Side, you will get some dice to survive the blast," is one of the lamer ones. "You know, this fight is tough, eh? Why not go nuts with rage and grab some sweet dice. Oh, and a Dark Side point." That's a little better. "I know you're trying to atone, but if you use all those big fat Dark Side dice think how easy it would be to kick his ass." That's a good one too.

We never played with any sweet "Dark Side" powers or anything like that, just the base Sense, Control, and Alter dice.

Actually, I don't know if that makes it grey or anything. You just end up with characters who struggle with the temptation to do evil to get what they want. Maybe they're marked by it, or maybe they're dead because they resisted the temptation. Yeah, those characters weren't paragons of Jedi virtue, but I liked that.

Yeah, there is a middle ground, because it's human beings that we're talking about. It's complicated.

 

[Falkus]

Yes and no. Canon is fuzzy in a game if for no other reason than that it's interactive, and each player's play experience creates a different order of events, not all of which can be the canonical one. At the very basic level, Revan's sex and whether Revan turned to the Dark or the Light are quite fundamental facts in the history of the Star Wars universe (since they determine whether Revan was Bastila's or Carth's lover, etc.), and yet after playing both games all you can say about either of those is that they're "indeterminate".

The case I was specifically referring to was the Jedi Knight series, where Kyle Katarn and Jaden both use dark side powers for the light side.

The point of the Force is that it *is* mystical and tied directly to one's emotions and one's psychological state. It isn't just another kind of "science", a simple physical force you can control. There are some manifestations of the Force directly linked to positive mental states -- empathy, calm, compassion -- and some that are directly linked to negative ones -- anger, hatred, schadenfreude, spite. The manifestation of Force Lightning is clearly the latter.

Well, that's what I have a problem with. I see the dark and light side as being determined by HOW you use your powers, not what your powers are. Using force heal to keep a person alive so you can keep torturing him puts you on the dark side, while using force lightning in my aforementioned assassin droid example puts you on the light side.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Well, that's what I have a problem with. I see the dark and light side as being determined by HOW you use your powers, not what your powers are. Using force heal to keep a person alive so you can keep torturing him puts you on the dark side, while using force lightning in my aforementioned assassin droid example puts you on the light side.

The problem with that view is that it contradicts the view espoused in the movies, which outrank everyhing else in terms of canonicity. The Force comes in two-flavors; natural (also called light side) and dark side. According to the Flanneled One, especially in the extras included with the DVDs, what we've been calling the light side of the Force is the natural state of things, with the dark side as corruption.

Force Lightning is the archetypical dark side power, and in the rather simplistic way the Star Wars universe works, using evil to fight evil is still an evil act. A caveat I've been using for my Star Wars games (successfully) for years is "the more you try to rationalize your actions to avoid a dark side point, the more you prove you deserve that dark side point." Like I've said before, every rationalization for "Grey Jedi" boils down to being able to want to use all those nifty dark side Force powers without suffering the consequences for them.

The closest thing we've even remotely seen to the so-called "grey" Jedi is Mace Windu, who developed a lethal fighting style out of a need to control and channel his own inner darkness. He knows that he's walking a razor's edge every time he uses Vaapad, and one misstep will lead to his fall, as proven by the two other experts in Vaapad both falling to the dark side. And yet Mace is firmly counted amongst the good guys.

 

[Falkus]

Well, that must be the reason why I'm not so fond of the Star Wars movies.

 

[Corvidae]

Think of it this way, they are the same power but different manifestations.

A jedi would use force push, which allows them to defeat their enemies without doing excessive harm. Force push is not a parlor trick learned in jedi academy, but rather the force flowing through the jedi and the jedi's own desire not to cause undue harm that causes it to manifest as a "push"

A sith or dark jedi however, has no compunctions about causing excessive harm. The force channled through them would come out in such a way as a simple deadly force lightning.

So a jedi could "learn" to use force lightning, but to do so would force the jedi to give up compunctions of killing and harming for harms sake, and thus push the jedi to the dark side.


Overall, the jedi abilities are not parlor tricks, or techniques picked up, but rather, are manifestations of the force moving through them. Like light through a prism, it is changed into a different form. In this case, the force is the light, and the jedi is the prism. A different shape or material of prism will change how the light is refracted. That is what the jedi do, they learn to shape themselves rather than shape the force. The force manifests depending on the person it manifests through.

So there is no learning powers. The powers come naturally, whether they are jedi powers or sith powers.

Hope that helps clear it up.

The force is not magic, it is not used like magic. I think that is the main misunderstanding.

John

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Yeah, there is a middle ground, because it's human beings that we're talking about. It's complicated.

Except that the Force has nothing to do with humans...there ISN'T a middle ground.

Remember, Light Side does not mean your a Jedi. The Force doesn't 'care' whether you're a Jedi or not. The important point is to follow the will of the Force in the natural state of things. And the Dark Side is the corruption of the natural state.

There is NOT a middle ground between natural and corruption. You are one or the other.

Humans can try to walk the line, but there isn't a line to walk. Yes, its fine to be a Light Sider that isn't actually a Jedi, but the Dark Side is the Dark Side. It is, quite simply, black and white. There are no shades of grey following the canon.