Star Wars Saga/D&D 5th Hybrid [OOC/Rolls]
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Forged Fury
First Post
I really enjoyed it, but it doesn't take a lot for me to like a Star Wars movie. I think my only problem was how that the ending felt shoe-horned after the fact, which is weird since the movie was specifically designed to precede A New Hope directly. I guess I don't understand the wisdom of a certain someone being on-board a combat vessel that was in all likelihood participating in a suicide mission. I'm also not sure if the narrative even fit that the certain someone was there in the first place, but I'll have to see it a second time to see if that was the case.
I found the CGI main character to be really jarring, for one. That's an aesthetic thing, of course. He was well done as CGI, but uncanny valleyed up when surrounded by live people.
Jyn Erso bugged me, and it's taken me awhile to really get down to why. Her motives as a character seemed weirdly fluid to me. At first she's being set up as this jaded, cynical 'rah bah bah, I just want what's for me' kind of person, and that's okay I guess...but then she takes this sharp right-hand turn into being something very different. And yes, the story gives her a sort of cathartic event to propel that shift, but I still found it falling flat for me. Plus, other than a bizarrely abbreviated spat with a guy who's verifiably not responsible for that event...when confronted by a room full of the people who ARE verifiably responsible for it, rather than being upset with them, she tries to rally them and restore their flagging spirits.
And yeah, I can rationalize it. I know why, narratively, that arc exists. But it doesn't feel like a real arc. It doesn't feel like it's being true to the character...at least not the character I thought she ought to be. I didn't feel like she had a consistent emotional integrity.
There were, additionally, lots of weird little plot moments that weren't exactly HOLES, but seemed to serve no function other than to create meaningless obstacle-like things for the heroes to waste a minute or two correcting on-screen before getting on with things. It happened often enough that I noticed it, which means it was too often.
I feel like they kind of split three or four interesting characters into seven people...making a cast that felt uniformly thin. Each one had like...one, maybe two signature things of note about them...and then we were swept on to the next because even in a 2.5 hour movie, there just wasn't TIME to get to know any of them. The villain was a bumbling bureaucrat.
And of course, because it's Star Wars, we have a Jedi. Oh, but not a JEDI Jedi. Just a guy, who uses the Force and does crazy kung-fu, but NOT A JEDI OKAY.
I dunno! It just felt...very...forced sometimes? Characters forced to do things that didn't feel natural. Plot events forced to take place even if they don't quite make sense. Star Wars Things forced to be there just to remind everyone, in case they forgot, that yes this is a Star Wars movie.
It was a lot of fun while it was happening. I ate my popcorn and liked the action and the music and I didn't think too hard about why Jyn did not one but TWO About-Face-Turns, or why Tarkin didn't just take over right away when he obviously wanted to and could have, or why the Empire has hyperdrive technology but uses what is essentially a really big THE CLAW machine to archive and retrieve data, or why the instrument panel to fix the transmission dish is...like...fifty feet away from the dish on a little platform all on its own... So I loved the movie when it was in progress.
And then I started thinking about it. And like a sweater with a thread poking out...pretty soon, all I had left was a really long thread.
That probably says more about me than it does the movie, honestly. (^_^)
Jyn Erso bugged me, and it's taken me awhile to really get down to why. Her motives as a character seemed weirdly fluid to me. At first she's being set up as this jaded, cynical 'rah bah bah, I just want what's for me' kind of person, and that's okay I guess...but then she takes this sharp right-hand turn into being something very different. And yes, the story gives her a sort of cathartic event to propel that shift, but I still found it falling flat for me. Plus, other than a bizarrely abbreviated spat with a guy who's verifiably not responsible for that event...when confronted by a room full of the people who ARE verifiably responsible for it, rather than being upset with them, she tries to rally them and restore their flagging spirits.
And yeah, I can rationalize it. I know why, narratively, that arc exists. But it doesn't feel like a real arc. It doesn't feel like it's being true to the character...at least not the character I thought she ought to be. I didn't feel like she had a consistent emotional integrity.
There were, additionally, lots of weird little plot moments that weren't exactly HOLES, but seemed to serve no function other than to create meaningless obstacle-like things for the heroes to waste a minute or two correcting on-screen before getting on with things. It happened often enough that I noticed it, which means it was too often.
I feel like they kind of split three or four interesting characters into seven people...making a cast that felt uniformly thin. Each one had like...one, maybe two signature things of note about them...and then we were swept on to the next because even in a 2.5 hour movie, there just wasn't TIME to get to know any of them. The villain was a bumbling bureaucrat.
And of course, because it's Star Wars, we have a Jedi. Oh, but not a JEDI Jedi. Just a guy, who uses the Force and does crazy kung-fu, but NOT A JEDI OKAY.
I dunno! It just felt...very...forced sometimes? Characters forced to do things that didn't feel natural. Plot events forced to take place even if they don't quite make sense. Star Wars Things forced to be there just to remind everyone, in case they forgot, that yes this is a Star Wars movie.
It was a lot of fun while it was happening. I ate my popcorn and liked the action and the music and I didn't think too hard about why Jyn did not one but TWO About-Face-Turns, or why Tarkin didn't just take over right away when he obviously wanted to and could have, or why the Empire has hyperdrive technology but uses what is essentially a really big THE CLAW machine to archive and retrieve data, or why the instrument panel to fix the transmission dish is...like...fifty feet away from the dish on a little platform all on its own... So I loved the movie when it was in progress.
And then I started thinking about it. And like a sweater with a thread poking out...pretty soon, all I had left was a really long thread.
That probably says more about me than it does the movie, honestly. (^_^)
Binder Fred
3 rings to bind them all!
Haven't seen it yet myself. Appreciate the commentary though, as well as the spoiler courtesy. Thanks
Star Wars Saga/D&D 5th Hybrid [OOC/Rolls]
[MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] Whoops, thought I had posted this. You bring up some interesting points.
-CGI freaked me out a little, mainly when compared to a non-cgi person. I agreed with suggestions a reviewer had made that they could have just made them appear via hologram. Though the second CGI person, I didn't know was CGI until later. Just a very short glance was all we as an audience needed, which I thought was a good way of using it.
-I agree with your assessment of Jyn. They made her initially that way to fit the 'dark gritty' feel of this movie. They could have even made her consistently make trouble for the rebels until the 'event', then still continue to make trouble fuelled by negative emotions as she desperately wants to do the thing that would help make things from that event right... Problem is, that would have been too scary for the writers I think. I can sort of see, she's actually a stock heroic character personality, dusted lightly with some grim and gritty.
Getting angry at said guy... I think THAT was within acceptable range of how someone might react emotionally, especially someone like her, but they could have pushed this further. Make her the truly cynical person and make him the guy who struggles to do what must be done. I know they wanted to show the republic in another light but... He he started off cold blooded and had another speedy turnaround.
I know what you mean about the obstacles now you mention them, but I think it's a method that's gaining increasing use in movies re: movies like the avengers. It helps every character to shine and allows an audience to watch a complex series of events unfold in a linear fashion.
One thing that same reviewer I mentioned complained about was (MINOR SPOILERS):
The planetary shield as an obstacle. I didn't personally have a problem with it because as far as I was aware, they exist and are quite a standard imperial technology, blocking ships, damage and communications. So, much like expanding on the lore of Mon Calamari admirals (Showing battle through the glass floor), which kind of ties in with their 3 dimensional space combat way of thinking), I liked it.
It was tricky, trying to introduce unique characters in x amount of time. Like I said, I think they tried to make them work together avengers style, but the difference is, each avenger was already well known or already had their own origin movies.
The villain was unprofessional, which I believe reflects the reason he hit the 'ceiling' and couldn't get to where he wanted. I thought he presented well as an example of what happens when the weak try to climb the ladder or gain recognition in an empire that demands strength. I wonder too though if maybe he was made bumbling JUST so the audience could dislike him and to also make people cheer when other imperials we know toyed with him.
Regarding the non-jedi. There's been a lot of lore in the universe regarding non-jedi who use the force. The other thing they more solidly canonised in the lore:
(MINOR SPOILER): Battle Meditation Shayuri! Battle Meditation! (Or maybe resistance? That's how I see resistance working in my mind, though I know Greenkarl views it more as an actual physical resilience (Kylo Ren after getting shot by chewie maybe), either way is fine). When he used that power, whichever it was, I lost it with excitement. And there were dark-troopers too! Oh my god! I think making him hang out at the temple for so long as what his friend implies is a jedi wannabe justified his abilities to me. The fact that his friend almost makes fun of him about it, ahhh, simple but effective foreshadowing there. They leave the possibilities as to how he became so strong to fans to argue about I think. All i'd say is that hanging about an ancient jedi temple wouldn't work against you in trying to come as close to being a jedi as possible. You wouldn't know how many old force ghosts were either directly or indirectly teaching him.
The disk cassettes are a part of the lore. The claw machine, well...Having a security setup where someone has to be at the claw, before another can access the location of the data is a high security measure which I can believe imperials might have in place. For them, because they're known to have efficient troops, having a little extra security for all the empires valuable secrets that slows their delivery down a little is probably not something they're worried about.
Hmm, though i pretty much agreed with you on most things, i still loved the movie.... I got caught up in all the lore expansion I think.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] Whoops, thought I had posted this. You bring up some interesting points.
-CGI freaked me out a little, mainly when compared to a non-cgi person. I agreed with suggestions a reviewer had made that they could have just made them appear via hologram. Though the second CGI person, I didn't know was CGI until later. Just a very short glance was all we as an audience needed, which I thought was a good way of using it.
-I agree with your assessment of Jyn. They made her initially that way to fit the 'dark gritty' feel of this movie. They could have even made her consistently make trouble for the rebels until the 'event', then still continue to make trouble fuelled by negative emotions as she desperately wants to do the thing that would help make things from that event right... Problem is, that would have been too scary for the writers I think. I can sort of see, she's actually a stock heroic character personality, dusted lightly with some grim and gritty.
Getting angry at said guy... I think THAT was within acceptable range of how someone might react emotionally, especially someone like her, but they could have pushed this further. Make her the truly cynical person and make him the guy who struggles to do what must be done. I know they wanted to show the republic in another light but... He he started off cold blooded and had another speedy turnaround.
I know what you mean about the obstacles now you mention them, but I think it's a method that's gaining increasing use in movies re: movies like the avengers. It helps every character to shine and allows an audience to watch a complex series of events unfold in a linear fashion.
One thing that same reviewer I mentioned complained about was (MINOR SPOILERS):
The planetary shield as an obstacle. I didn't personally have a problem with it because as far as I was aware, they exist and are quite a standard imperial technology, blocking ships, damage and communications. So, much like expanding on the lore of Mon Calamari admirals (Showing battle through the glass floor), which kind of ties in with their 3 dimensional space combat way of thinking), I liked it.
It was tricky, trying to introduce unique characters in x amount of time. Like I said, I think they tried to make them work together avengers style, but the difference is, each avenger was already well known or already had their own origin movies.
The villain was unprofessional, which I believe reflects the reason he hit the 'ceiling' and couldn't get to where he wanted. I thought he presented well as an example of what happens when the weak try to climb the ladder or gain recognition in an empire that demands strength. I wonder too though if maybe he was made bumbling JUST so the audience could dislike him and to also make people cheer when other imperials we know toyed with him.
Regarding the non-jedi. There's been a lot of lore in the universe regarding non-jedi who use the force. The other thing they more solidly canonised in the lore:
(MINOR SPOILER): Battle Meditation Shayuri! Battle Meditation! (Or maybe resistance? That's how I see resistance working in my mind, though I know Greenkarl views it more as an actual physical resilience (Kylo Ren after getting shot by chewie maybe), either way is fine). When he used that power, whichever it was, I lost it with excitement. And there were dark-troopers too! Oh my god! I think making him hang out at the temple for so long as what his friend implies is a jedi wannabe justified his abilities to me. The fact that his friend almost makes fun of him about it, ahhh, simple but effective foreshadowing there. They leave the possibilities as to how he became so strong to fans to argue about I think. All i'd say is that hanging about an ancient jedi temple wouldn't work against you in trying to come as close to being a jedi as possible. You wouldn't know how many old force ghosts were either directly or indirectly teaching him.
The disk cassettes are a part of the lore. The claw machine, well...Having a security setup where someone has to be at the claw, before another can access the location of the data is a high security measure which I can believe imperials might have in place. For them, because they're known to have efficient troops, having a little extra security for all the empires valuable secrets that slows their delivery down a little is probably not something they're worried about.
Hmm, though i pretty much agreed with you on most things, i still loved the movie.... I got caught up in all the lore expansion I think.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Forged Fury
First Post
I finally got the chance to see the movie a second time this weekend with my wife. I'm just going to put all of this in a spoiler so hopefully Binder Fred can pass over it.
[sblock]I enjoyed it and thought it held up pretty well, although I think having some things already spoiled doesn't help the narrative (Cassian's ruthlessness at the beginning is a very different take on the Rebellion than we've seen before).
My biggest gripe is still what I consider a plot hole. When did the Tantive IV get onto the Perfundity, Admiral Raddus' flagship? More importantly, and I think the biggest problem, how/when did R2-D2 and C-3PO get on it? Now that I've seen it a second time, I believe the stream of events and scenes are as follows:
1) Rebel pow-wow where Rebel Command decides not to attempt getting the Death Star plans.
2) Mon Mothma and Bail Organa discuss seeking Obi-Wan Kenobi's help. Bail implies he is sending Leia.
3) Rebel Command intercepts a transmission from the Citadel planet about a rebel attack. We learn that Admiral Raddus is already on the way there.
Apparently, the novelization states that between the pow-wow and the intercepted radio transmission, Leia is heading to Tatooine to pick up Kenobi in the Tantive IV, which ends up having mechanical problems. Admiral Raddus meets up with her and loads the Tantive IV into the Perfundity for repairs intending to continue the trip to Tatooine. It's at that point they intercept the transmission about the attempt at the Death Star plans and decide that is more important.
OK, fine, I guess that works.
To me, that doesn't explain the scene where R2-D2 and C-3PO are watching all of the action on Yavin IV when the rest of the rebel fleet is scrambling to reinforce Admiral Raddus, who is already on the way to Scarif and presumably already has the Tantive IV in the hold of the Perfundity. I mean, those droids are definitely on the Tantive IV at the beginning of a New Hope. I doubt someone would have shuttled them over in mid-battle.
Maybe a small nitpick, but it bothered me.
Also, why so many GR-75 Medium Transports? Those are transports for personnel and the Alliance clearly didn't deploy that many reinforcements.[/sblock]
[sblock]I enjoyed it and thought it held up pretty well, although I think having some things already spoiled doesn't help the narrative (Cassian's ruthlessness at the beginning is a very different take on the Rebellion than we've seen before).
My biggest gripe is still what I consider a plot hole. When did the Tantive IV get onto the Perfundity, Admiral Raddus' flagship? More importantly, and I think the biggest problem, how/when did R2-D2 and C-3PO get on it? Now that I've seen it a second time, I believe the stream of events and scenes are as follows:
1) Rebel pow-wow where Rebel Command decides not to attempt getting the Death Star plans.
2) Mon Mothma and Bail Organa discuss seeking Obi-Wan Kenobi's help. Bail implies he is sending Leia.
3) Rebel Command intercepts a transmission from the Citadel planet about a rebel attack. We learn that Admiral Raddus is already on the way there.
Apparently, the novelization states that between the pow-wow and the intercepted radio transmission, Leia is heading to Tatooine to pick up Kenobi in the Tantive IV, which ends up having mechanical problems. Admiral Raddus meets up with her and loads the Tantive IV into the Perfundity for repairs intending to continue the trip to Tatooine. It's at that point they intercept the transmission about the attempt at the Death Star plans and decide that is more important.
OK, fine, I guess that works.
To me, that doesn't explain the scene where R2-D2 and C-3PO are watching all of the action on Yavin IV when the rest of the rebel fleet is scrambling to reinforce Admiral Raddus, who is already on the way to Scarif and presumably already has the Tantive IV in the hold of the Perfundity. I mean, those droids are definitely on the Tantive IV at the beginning of a New Hope. I doubt someone would have shuttled them over in mid-battle.
Maybe a small nitpick, but it bothered me.
Also, why so many GR-75 Medium Transports? Those are transports for personnel and the Alliance clearly didn't deploy that many reinforcements.[/sblock]
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It's possible, yes, to fill in the blanks for oneself...to edit the movie in one's brain and effectively compensate for all the things the movie lacked.
But that doesn't mean the movie is good. I would argue, in fact, it means the movie forgot to do a few things, and is forcing us to rewrite it, and do the jobs of the people who made it.
And yeah...the movie couldn't possibly have gone into detail about ALL of the 'force warrior' thing, or given us context on the ridiculous data searching claws, or any of the other situations where an apparently silly thing happens for 'lore reasons.' In my mind, that suggests that a better approach would have been for the movie authors to have found other narrative devices...ones that didn't require the audience to rationalize so heavily. Maybe just choose one or two such moments, and then provided the interesting context in the script.
I think it would have been really cool to have a scene where Jyn and the mystic warrior had a sit-down, and she asked him about the Jedi and his relationship with the Force...and he could have given her some of that, along with some insights into his character that might make his scene at the end make more sense.
If the claw scene hadn't been so needlessly drawn out, that would be minutes for such a scene to exist.
That kind of thing.
My complaints about the movie are pretty much entirely about the narrative structure and storytelling, basically. I know very little 'star wars lore' in a sense that's wider than what was in the movies. And as such, I couldn't do the Jedi Mind Trick of convincing myself that these things made sense once I had a moment to stop and think about them.
But that doesn't mean the movie is good. I would argue, in fact, it means the movie forgot to do a few things, and is forcing us to rewrite it, and do the jobs of the people who made it.
And yeah...the movie couldn't possibly have gone into detail about ALL of the 'force warrior' thing, or given us context on the ridiculous data searching claws, or any of the other situations where an apparently silly thing happens for 'lore reasons.' In my mind, that suggests that a better approach would have been for the movie authors to have found other narrative devices...ones that didn't require the audience to rationalize so heavily. Maybe just choose one or two such moments, and then provided the interesting context in the script.
I think it would have been really cool to have a scene where Jyn and the mystic warrior had a sit-down, and she asked him about the Jedi and his relationship with the Force...and he could have given her some of that, along with some insights into his character that might make his scene at the end make more sense.
If the claw scene hadn't been so needlessly drawn out, that would be minutes for such a scene to exist.
That kind of thing.
My complaints about the movie are pretty much entirely about the narrative structure and storytelling, basically. I know very little 'star wars lore' in a sense that's wider than what was in the movies. And as such, I couldn't do the Jedi Mind Trick of convincing myself that these things made sense once I had a moment to stop and think about them.
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