D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[Stalker0]

GURPS and Hero System have their own problems as to why I don't play them. However, staying on topic, I believe that it should be my choice as a player as to if a character's skill improves and the designers have no business building in any automatic improvement. Therefore, I do not consider this change to be an improvement, but rather I consider it a giant step backwards in game design .

Do you believe that the fact that wizards get any BAB is poor design? I mean a 20th level wizard can fight as well as a battle hardened 10th level fighter.

I remember many times instances where challenges were 1 character only. Mundane swim checks become epic problems because no one has ranks in swim. The fighter cursing the fact that he has 0 ability to stealth, even as a 20th level character. I think this is a positive step forward.

I mean, its not like a solider will suddenly outskill a scoundrel. A difference of 5 in a skill is a big deal, and you can always take skill focus to improve that further. I think the niche protection is still there, but now a high level character can actually try some high level stunts without having to spend 10 ranks and more in a skill they may only use once or twice in their entire carear.

 

[Greg K]

I'm curious: do you have problems with automatic improvements in base attack bonuses and base saving throws? If not, what makes skills so special? While I can see advantages in having more granularity with respect to skills (more differences in levels of skill between characters of the same level) and more specificity (distinguishing Spot from Sense Motive instead of rolling both into Perception), automatic improvement for skills is something that I can accept as a feature of a class-based system.

I tolerate the BAB and base save throw improvement although I wouldn't mind an M&M approach. However, when it comes to skills, I do not have the same tolerance threshold.

 

[Greg K]

Do you believe that the fact that wizards get any BAB is poor design? I mean a 20th level wizard can fight as well as a battle hardened 10th level fighter.

Yes, but I can tolerate it unlike with skills

I remember many times instances where challenges were 1 character only. Mundane swim checks become epic problems because no one has ranks in swim. The fighter cursing the fact that he has 0 ability to stealth, even as a 20th level character. I think this is a positive step forward.

Perhaps, players should not mini-max so much towards combat or their niche and actually put a rank or two in other skills that might be background appropriate at first level.

I mean, its not like a solider will suddenly outskill a scoundrel. A difference of 5 in a skill is a big deal, and you can always take skill focus to improve that further. I think the niche protection is still there, but now a high level character can actually try some high level stunts without having to spend 10 ranks and more in a skill they may only use once or twice in their entire carear.

Now, they can try it whenever even if it is inappropriate to background or concept. That makes it bad gme design in my opinion.

 

[RedFox]

Now, they can try it whenever even if it is inappropriate to background or concept. That makes it bad gme design in my opinion.

It's a baseline level of general competence. For Star Wars. That's excellent game design.

 

[Stalker0]

Now, they can try it whenever even if it is inappropriate to background or concept. That makes it bad gme design in my opinion.

If your background says you live in desert and have never seen water in your life, then give your character a -5 to swim checks or something. Its very easy to adjust this model to encompass a character's background.

 

[Gundark]

If this is 4th edition...I'm sold. All hail the new overlords.

 

[Delta]

I am really impressed by the skill system changes... in fact, I'll say two things. (1) I had no intention of even looking at a 4E version of D&D, but this is the one key thing that will convince me to at least consider it. (2) I'm absolutely amazed that the new preview explicitly asserts my largest complaints about 3E skills and character-creation (which seemed overwhelmingly disputed when I brought them up before on these boards):

Skill points were one of the most complicated parts of character creation. Not only was it prone to error, but it also meant that creating high-level NPCs could take up to an hour. Eliminating skill points allowed us to streamline character creation and keep skill bonuses consistent with what most players were accustomed to.

The feats that provided a +2 bonus to two skills are gone, as are species traits or class features that provided a bonus to skills. Synergy bonuses have been eliminated as well. In the old version of the rules, all of these factors contributed to a skill system that was needlessly complex and vastly prone to errors and abuse.

Axing skill point fiddling, minor feats, synergy bonuses? Actually reducing hour-long NPC creation times? Fantastic and amazing!

My only concerns now are (a) I really wish we could avoid seeing replacement complexities with Talents and re-roll mechanics and whatnot in D&D, and (b) I wonder what would be done about armor skill penalties.

 

[Ds Da Man]

If less is a good thing, then how come the people in the group didn't choose to use less? You can make a functional 18th lvl character in 15 minutes, unless you specifically choose to run through all of the different options out there.

The great thing with having lots of options, IMNSHO, is that one can choose to use as much or as little as one wants. If there are much less options, as in a heavily class-based system with limited optimization, then one only has the one choice. I'd rather have a lot more choice and count on my own judgement and ability to choose. YMMV, and apparently does.

Heh...I have never...ever...seen someone create a 3e character in 15min. Never. Definately not with 18 levels, and with items (what 400,000 worth). Now maybe with a computer nearby, but just rolling dice for HP could suck up that time.

 

[Ds Da Man]

Regardless, I want a simpler D&D, not more crap to add on. If you don't, then thats fine. Stick with 3.5. I just know that it is the same problem over and over. We make it to just about 9th - 10th level, then the game sucks, and stops. Either the players are too overpowering, or are overpowered. Heck, no one in our group ever wants to DM, cause it sucks to remember every creatures 42 feats, abilities, etc.

 

[Alnag]

Regardless, I want a simpler D&D, not more crap to add on. If you don't, then thats fine. Stick with 3.5. I just know that it is the same problem over and over. We make it to just about 9th - 10th level, then the game sucks, and stops. Either the players are too overpowering, or are overpowered. Heck, no one in our group ever wants to DM, cause it sucks to remember every creatures 42 feats, abilities, etc.

Well... we haven't seen everything (especially the talent trees might make a lot of mess with otherwise simple system), but as far as one can tell from current information the game is going to make d20system more lite. Which is good (if it is not too lite), but the players also require growing complexity (which is probably included - talent tress, multiclassing etc.). As long as we can't see the whole, we can't tell whether it is better than 3.5e (or if it would even work for D&D) but if the designers approach other elements of game in same manner as these, I am pretty sure they are on right track.

E.g. - the system gives incentives to gamers who likes cool powers, because there are cool new abilities on every level. But on the other hand it prevents (partialy) the obession with number combinations (because it simplifies the skill bonuses, cancelling the feat storm).

More lite rules alow easier grasp and participation of players who are not strong (or interested) in the rules memorizing and are more interested in let's say character immersion or story development.

I am not sure how the archetypal niche will be protected (interest of another players), but as long as I could tell most of the player desires will be fullfiled and some common problems solved or at least decreased.

I am pleasantly surprised and very enthusiastic (which is something quite unusual, because I am pretty pesimistic and critical bastard ).