D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[Sir Brennen]

It's irrational of me, but I'd prefer to keep that secret cow around;

I don't mean to pick on you Henry, but this just made me giggle. The term is "sacred cow", like the bovine that is too holy to slaughter for meat, or rules so distinctly "D&D" that designers hesitate to get rid of them even in the face of bad/marginal mechanics.

"Secret Cow" makes me picture a Far Side-style heifer in dark shades and a trench coat

"Who's the Jersey with his horns to the street? It's ... Secret Cow!"

Sorry to derail the thread. Maybe it should have a cow-catcher...

 

[Desdichado]

Hobo,
I don't have a problem with leveling. I have a problem with leveling making you essentially better at everything.

Er... I guess I'm even more confused then. That seems like that's--and always has been--the entire point of levelling. I can't parse the statement that you don't have a problem with leveling, just with getting better at everything. That's what leveling is.

For the record, that's the problem I have with leveling, although I've more or less made my peace with it and accept it regardless.

 

[buzz]

Because it is on life support now? I don't think so. AFAIK, it is still riding on top of the industry as a whole, which fluctuates with various economic trends and forces.

I agree 100%. I don't think there's any past precedent showing that D&D's sales would be better if it were simpler. Not that there isn't room for improvement. (Which I think I said upthread.)

 

[GreatLemur]

I just wish they would have dumped the ability scores and gone straight to the modifiers, which is what is really important anyway. Having a number just so it can represent a number is downright silly; take that cow out and shoot it!

Oh, Christ, no kidding. Why is Blue Rose / True20 seriously the only d20-derivative to do this? 3-18 always seemed like a weird and illogical range, anyway, and these days it only makes sense if you're actually rolling dice instead of using a point buy system.

Anyway, I'm cautiously optimistic about what we've heard of Saga Edition, but I ain't quite sold on everything.

For example, we removed Craft, because traditionally the Repair skill was used to build droids, starships, and so on.

This strikes me as kind of a weird decision. Not necessarily a bad one, but just surprising, in light of the huge focus on crafting in today's very popular CRPGs. Anyway, here's hoping they rename Repair to Electronics or something so it'd make more sense to be building droids with the damn thing.

Lastly, we took a look at Sense Motive. The skill allowed a character to perceive changes in tone (listening), body language (sight), and mannerisms (both) to determine someone's true motives. That sounded a lot like what we were already doing with the Perception skill, and so we folded Sense Motive into the new skill as well.

Collapsing Spot, Search, and Listen into one skill sounds like a great idea, but adding Sense Motive in as well doesn't really sit right. The other skills are all dependant only upon raw sensory acuity and general alertness, while Sense Motive is largely a question of social and psychological awareness. They cover very different conceptual ground, as well.

Still, skill consolidation is, in general, a good thing.

Though it may be considered a radical change, Saga Edition eliminates the concept of skill ranks. Instead of investing resources and micromanaging skills, a character is either trained or untrained in a skill, period. Our research into how players created their characters showed that they typically maxed out their ranks in a couple of skills and put only a few points into other skills.

I don't know how everybody else builds their characters, but I don't really do the max-the-important-skills-and-ignore-the-rest thing. I tend to give my characters very varied levels of ability in different skills, according to what seems appropriate.

Moving from skill points to a binary "you've got it or you don't" system makes skills a hell of a lot less fine-grained, and it sounds like it might eliminate the "color skill" practice (that is, when you toss two points into Perform (whistling) just for kicks) by making skills a more carefully-rationed resource.

All in all, though, I think I have to admit that this rather severe simplification of the skill systemn is probably a good idea. It ain't a good fit for me, personally, but I know that a lot of folks get completely turned off by that part of character generation.

1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus)

This is interesting. I'm not sure I can really get behind the whole idea of a character getting better at repairing droids over the course of his career even though he never does any mechanical work, and mechanical aptitude isn't part of his concept in any way. (Comparing this to Wizards gaining BAB over time doesn't strike me as completely valid: BAB is a much more fundamental resource than the vast majority of skills, and Wizards most definitely have use for it.) But that's a minor gripe, and I do like the smoother ability curve that it leads to, as demonstrated by Kunimatyu. So I could live with it.

The new skill system encourages players to try things as the encounter demands. Sure, you might not be as good at riding a tauntaun as your friend, but at least you can hop on and join the fun rather than waiting back at Echo Base.

This is cool, as long as they still make different levels of skill mean something, even when everyone ends up being "good enough". I really hope they work variable levels of success in, somewhere.

The feats that provided a +2 bonus to two skills are gone

About time. I never understood why the PHB needed 15 goddamn feats that were essentially the same thing, and all of them basically redundant in light of Skill Focus, anyway. And, worst of all, they're newb traps: They don't do anything interesting or useful, but they're named simply and clearly, and tie in easily to folks' 1st-level character concepts, so they're easy choices for folks who don't know the game well.

Synergy bonuses have been eliminated as well.

Oh, man, finally. Those were always pretty lame.

For example, Wookiees have a natural ability to reroll Persuasion checks to intimidate.

That's cool. I always liked reroll mechanics. I dig how they improve your chances of success while still rewarding a character for being good at something, and how they make unlikely catastrophic failures at something a character ought to be good at less likely.

(yes, Initiative is now a skill)

Interesting. I dig that. Certainly, if anything ought to go up with character level, this qualifies. I kind of preferred the idea of Initiative checks being replaced with Reflex saves, but I can certainly deal with this, especially now that saves are being converted to static defensive target numbers.

So, yeah, all-in-all, I'm digging this whole direction. Simplification isn't generally my bag, but I understand its necessity, and most of the complexity they're cutting out is stuff I'm not too attached to, anyway.

 

[Hjorimir]

Because it is on life support now? I don't think so. AFAIK, it is still riding on top of the industry as a whole, which fluctuates with various economic trends and forces.

Riding on top of a ridiculously small industry. Change before you have to, otherwise, it will be too late. I think WotC realizes this though.

 

[Obrysii]

I'm sorry if this has already been said, but is anyone else disappointed by the near-total integration and near-requirement of miniatures into the Saga edition?

Speed and size are now listed solely in squares ... and squares are an awkward 1.5m now instead of 2m before.

 

[Greg K]

Er... I guess I'm even more confused then. That seems like that's--and always has been--the entire point of levelling. I can't parse the statement that you don't have a problem with leveling, just with getting better at everything. That's what leveling is.

For the record, that's the problem I have with leveling, although I've more or less made my peace with it and accept it regardless.

Leveling does not have to mean automatically getting better at everything. Ideally, I prefer how levels work in Rolemaster (without the optional class/level bonus) and HARP: Your character levels and then you spend the points on skills. There is no automatically getting better at everything. However, even in the d20 games that I have seen, you don't automatically get better at everything. Your character only receives automatic improvements in BAB, Saving throws, and, possibly, class defense bonus and/or supernatural powers (I prefer to replace the core magic and psionic rules with d20 variants where this is not the case). Still, your character not automatically improve in everything as he or she generally does not improve in skills unless you specifically assign skill ranks or a skill appropriate feat.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I'm sorry if this has already been said, but is anyone else disappointed by the near-total integration and near-requirement of miniatures into the Saga edition?

Speed and size are now listed solely in squares ... and squares are an awkward 1.5m now instead of 2m before.

NOPE.

There's a metric buttload of mini's out there to be used so why shouldnt WOTC as a buisness encourage thier use?

I could see your gripe if you absolutley positively could not play the game at all without miniatures. That would certainly suck. But I have the feeling that that's not the case here. If I can run D&D without miniatures, I'm fairly certain SW:SE can be run without mini's, unless I missed something in these previews.

 

[Reynard]

Riding on top of a ridiculously small industry. Change before you have to, otherwise, it will be too late. I think WotC realizes this though.

One reason I don't think SWSE is a dry run for 4E is that D&D does *not* suffer (in sales) for complexity or an overabundance of options. While there will always be individuals who dislike X or Y, the fact is that trends in published material for 3.5e all point toward complexity and a high degree of options are good for D&D's current and future success. That Star Wars has twice now failed under the same assumption suggests that WotC finally got smart and understands that Star Wars is not, in fact, D&D in Spaaace and decided to build a system around what Star Wars *is* -- plus selling minis.

I am sure a change or two from SWSE will appear in the inevitable 4E, but so will many additions and changes from the complete series', environmental series, UA and so forth. WHen 4E comes, I desperately hope it will be a streamlined version of 3.5 *as it is now* with a lot of the rules options built into the core so the crunch options -- feats, spells, gear, PrCs -- can be a whole lot more modular than they are now.

As long as I can still effectively throw the battlemat and minis out the window, and they provide me with ready to play NPCs and monsters -- as per DMG II and MMIV -- I'll be one happy DM.

 

[drothgery]

I'm sorry if this has already been said, but is anyone else disappointed by the near-total integration and near-requirement of miniatures into the Saga edition?

Speed and size are now listed solely in squares ... and squares are an awkward 1.5m now instead of 2m before.

You've derailed half a dozen threads on WotC's boards with this argument. Can you leave it be here, please?