D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

Kamikaze Midget said:
They're different kinds of fun. One is "let's see how lucky you are right now!" the other is "let's see how thorough you are in designing your character." They former is more action-oriented, while the latter is necessarily slower if you're "good" at it. It takes more time to calculate the optimal Power Attack number than it does to roll again. The latter isn't co-opted, because there seems to still be plenty of number-crunching in character design, just less of it (reducing complexity, which improves the speed of selection).
Bottom line: the guy who enjoyed being a number-crunching power-attacker seems to be kicked to the curb for his badwrongfun. I actually don't mind that so much for Star Wars, which can appeal to the "lite" gamer, but I sure hope the designers have no illusions about how many D&D gamers have grown attached to designing their heavy-hitters.

And being able to pro-actively, in the heat of the moment, decide to do a take-back might not streamline the system, but it will almost certainly make the game flow faster and better at the table.
"It won't streamline the system, but it will make the game flow faster at the table". That's a non sequitor. If you've got bloat in the system, you've got bloat at the table.

It seems that a number folks in this thread have already jumped headlong into the "adding numbers slows the game down" bandwagon without giving the matter much thought. Actually, it's more like "remembering all the numbers to add slows the game down". Which is the whole point I've been trying to make here. To reiterate: if you still have tons of stuff factoring into your checks, you still have tons of stuff to remember to factor in.
 
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Turjan said:
Rerolls are not the same as boni. They work in a slightly different way.
Everyone pay attention. This here is a pile of insight. :p

And someone suggested just to take two dice in the same roll, which would save time. At least for 'yes or no' type rolls, that's a valid alternative.
Well, writing down bonuses beforehand always worked for me.
 

No, rerolls and bonuses aren't the same (boni??--lol) but that doesn't mean that the statistical probabilities of a given result can't be relatively easily computed and compared for either method. Heck, I did it my very first semester of statistics. It comes across as somewhat panicky (IMO) at this stage to assume that the designers haven't considered that yet.
Ds Da Man said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a 3E hater, I just dislike DMing 3E, and really hate high level D&D. Of course, I haven't found any system that do any better. So maybe I'm just a whiner!
True; and some of this arguming to date is a bit of a moot point; although I state that I can whip up a competent high level character in not much time, I really don't like to. I really dislike high level D&D too.

However, I am a fan of d20 specifically; ironically a lot of the D&Disms of D&D specifically turn me off, though.
 

Felon said:
Everyone pay attention. This here is a pile of insight. :p
It's apples and oranges. Mechanically, they do something different. Given a moderate bonus and a moderate DC, the reroll will give you a better advantage. Given a moderate bonus and a high DC, the bonus will give you a better advantage; it will even allow you to beat higher DCs, unlike a reroll.

This means a bonus will allow you to do things that were impossible for you before. A reroll just makes you better at things you were already moderately good at, but more consistently so.
Felon said:
Well, writing down bonuses beforehand always worked for me.
It worked for everyone. It just took time.
 
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Felon said:
Reducing a check's DC is, for all meaningful purposes, the same thing as adding a bonus to the check. It's subtracting a number instead of adding a number. Actually, it's a little worse since the reduced DC is a separate thing to make a note of on your character sheet, rather than something you figure directly into your total modifier.

Ah, I wasn't very clear there. What I meant is that a Talent may allow special uses of skills.

For example, in some d20 games you can take a -5 penalty to your climb check, and climb at half speed instead of 1/4 speed. or you can take a -5 penalty to your bluf skill and feint as a move action instead of a standard action. They're called Skill challenges in True20 and in IHs, and it's a mechanic that slowly creeping into 3.5 as well I think.

I could definitely see talents that reduced the penalties for these challenges. The thing is, I never tell my players that they must take a penalty to their skill when attempting these challenges, I rather increase the DC. Mechanically the same, but I hope you can see why I said lower the DCs. ;)


Look guys, our choices here seem to be: A) play the "I just can't imagine" card, or B) combine the info at hand with the power of reason and realize that it is possible to make educated guesses. I'm going with the latter, heedless of any scandalous accusations of "assuming" or "speculating".

No, you're syaing: using only rerolls won't work/ will be lame. To which a lot of people are saying "Wait a moment, rerolls aren't the only thing that will affect skills."

The previews themselves bring up the point that there are other mechanics to be used (thank nerfherder for the quote). Personally, I'd rather give the designers the benefit of the doubt, than assume they didn't take your very valid concern into considerations themselves.

And yes, if it was solely limited to rerolls, I could see your concern. But I'm pretty sure it isn't.
 

"It won't streamline the system, but it will make the game flow faster at the table". That's a non sequitor. If you've got bloat in the system, you've got bloat at the table.

It's the whole idea that rolling dice is more fun for more people than crunching numbers. It's significant in that it involves bodily action, the physical movement of the player, not just the mental challenge of adding +1's. It shakes you out of your "sit there and tell me what your character does" kind of baseline for most of the game. It's not inherently better, but it's easier to remember by it's very nature of being an active process that demands instant player input rather than the passive process of adding bonuses that just demands a player have the correct output.

It's not BETTER, but the difference enables more activity from the player, and if you're looking for more action in the game, this adds it. It does take away an aspect of cerebral play, but with all the complaints about D&D's complexity and too many buffs and the challenge of adding up all the scores right, it seems that D&D, in this respect, may be a bit *too* cerebral for a lot of players and DM's. Heck, even OotS did a strip about all the little +1's and +2's that some players just forget. This has been a problem in D&D, and reducing the number of minor bonuses is the solution.

This reduces the number of minor bonuses and replaces it with active player input. Instead of just remembering 10 +2's, you remember that you get to roll your dice again (for instance) if you don't like the result. You get to steer the ship during play, not just in between sessions when choosing the right skill or feat.

It's a bit of simple human programing, in the end. It's why people still remember the Capcom Code but forget Pythagoras's theorem. It's why languages are taught aloud, why songs you can sing along to are easier to remember (even if they're not particularly good songs): When an action requires you do actively do something, it's easier to stick in your head.

It seems that a number folks in this thread have already jumped headlong into the "adding numbers slows the game down" bandwagon without giving the matter much thought. Actually, it's more like "remembering all the numbers to add slows the game down". Which is the whole point I've been trying to make here. To reiterate: if you still have tons of stuff factoring into your checks, you still have tons of stuff to remember to factor in.

I think with the amount of complaints about high-level complexity, too many buffs, and the common error of "Whoops, there's a +2 synergy bonus here!", many players have found that adding numbers *does* slow the game down for them, and so for them, it's not quite as fun.

And while these other rules certainly have potential to become as bloated (for instance, allowing you to re-roll an action more than once), each individual rule itself is easier to "stick" because of how people learn by doing, not just by thinking.
 

Getting rid of the +2/+2 skills and synergy bonuses helps to reign in skill twinking too.

My first SWd20 character was a twilek noble/diplomat.

When she hit 2nd level, she had:

5 ranks diplomacy
5 ranks bluff (bonus class skill) +2 synergy to diplomacy
5 ranks sense motive +2 synergy to diplomacy
Skill Focus (diplomacy) +3 to diplomacy

i.e. her diplomacy check was +7 at 1st level, and jumped to +12 at 2nd level because of all those synergies that kicked in. At 3rd level she took a level in scoundrel, got the Trustworthy feat (another +2) giving her +15, and +20 when using diplomacy to obtain dodgy goods (via scoundrels illicit barter class feature).

I wanted to make a diplomat, and had fun with her (as did the rest of the party), but it is a good example of how skill bonuses can get out of hand!
 

iwatt said:
No, you're syaing: using only rerolls won't work/ will be lame. To which a lot of people are saying "Wait a moment, rerolls aren't the only thing that will affect skills."

And yes, if it was solely limited to rerolls, I could see your concern. But I'm pretty sure it isn't.
I appreciate your politeness, but I am in fact not focusing exclusively on rerolls. It's just what we have to use as an example (I also addressed the "take 10" ability as well). I get the impression you've rushed through my posts, which would be apropos considering the context.

Kamikaze Midget said:
It's the whole idea that rolling dice is more fun for more people than crunching numbers.
Right, that's being stated as tautological and I simply don't buy it as such, nor do I see "complex" as a pejorative. For some folks D&D is not an adrenaline-junkie, button-mashing Capcom fighting game, but rather a game of tactics. And in fact, tabletop RPG's are much better-suited for the latter than the former. You'll never streamline an RPG enough to keep up with a Playstation.

I think with the amount of complaints about high-level complexity, too many buffs, and the common error of "Whoops, there's a +2 synergy bonus here!", many players have found that adding numbers *does* slow the game down for them, and so for them, it's not quite as fun.
Again, this is something I addressed and you've provided an apt example: "Whoops, there's a +2 synergy bonus here" is not a math problem. It is a memorization problem. And high-level character generation isn't a math problem, it's a record-keeping problem. There's too much junk to keep track of. Give people a bunch of other stuff to keep track of, and the situation is six or a half-dozen.

For one thing, I do wonder if characters continue to gain feats every three levels in addition to the feats they gain for progressing in their class. Cutting out those extra feats would streamline character-building, for better or worse.
 

One problem that has alluded to (by multiple people) is the "after the fact" record keeping of the the skills. Adding multiple +2s isn't difficult math. pouring through books trying to get +100 at 2nd level is a joy for some people.

Where I run into trouble is auditing charcaters even two or three levels after I gained a bonus (I'm a player by the way). If I'm making sure I have my skill points correct I don't always remember where all of my bonuses come from. For D&D if it isn't a Rank and it isn't from the stat in question it all gets lumped together in Other. Bonuses from Synergys and Enahcnements to Luck and Because It Is Tuesday gets lumped into one category and I am looking for that portion of it being cleaned up. I can't always remember them all.

It sounds like (currently) all of the bonuses will be feats/talents/class abilities so evenrything can be written down in some sort of Abilities section on the character sheet. That should help players (and DMs) keep track of everything. This I am looking forward to.


At least until items from books start adding in +1s and +2s and the entire system gets shot down because someone wasn't paying attention and spilled coffee on the Death Star controls...
 


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