D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[Sir Brennen]

Just a note - I think that bluff is in a separate skill called deception, not part of persuasion, so the skill agglomeration isn't as bad as you think.

Yeah, I think you're right. Based on some examples they gave in Preview #1:

• Will the heroes notice the smell of blaster burns when they walk into a room? Perception!
• Will the heroes convince a diplomat to see their side of things? Persuasion!
• Will the heroes trick the local police into letting them go free? Deception!

Personally I'd move sense motive into either deception or persuasion though (I'll decide when I see the full details)

Deception would probably be a better fit - "Never try to con a con man."

 

[I'm A Banana]

Personally I'd move sense motive into either deception or persuasion though (I'll decide when I see the full details)

FFZ is yoinking this (which is just applying lessons already tentatively applied), and going with a skill called Instinct, which governs Sense Motive as well as Survival

 

[Felon]

We are not talking mastery. We are simply talking more dexterity than a gelatinous cube. In the movies, we see him:

- win initiative twice
- operate several hidden switches quickly
- deftly kill small creatures
- grapple Princess Leia (once successfully, once not)
- Hide and Move Silently (in the throne room)

So I'd say his Dex simply cannot be lower than 8, and it's probably 10 or 12.

Boy, is this reaching!

Jabba didn't Hide or Move Silently in the throne room. He had total concealment and didn't move.

 

[Felon]

So, on the Empire and Alliance preview, anybody notice that the Transdoshan had feats called Martial Arts I & II?

 

[Felon]

Exactly. Persuading is persuading is persuading. Everybody does it a different way. Lookign at the Use the Force skill, i could see some sub-categories like intimidate, barter, befirend, etc..

Wookies have the ability to reroll persuasion checks when used to intimdate. They won't be able to reroll checks when trying to barter or to befreind others.

Persuading is persuading is persuading...except when it isn't.

So, wookies have the ability to reroll Persuasion checks when used to intimidate, but not when using Persuasion checks in other ways. So what's the net effect here?

It's this: the wookie can choose to stink at Persuasion and optimistically reroll his Persuasion checks when going "RAAARGGH", or he can put some resources into being genuinely scary, which will de facto make him an effective negotiator, charmer, and all-around diplomat.

I'm certainly happy to see some skills merged, but in other cases I'd rather see the skills remain separate and have their utility expanded.

Personally I'd move sense motive into either deception or persuasion though (I'll decide when I see the full details)

The problem there is that Deception and Persuasion are Cha-based, whereas Sense Motive is Wis-based, and those are both very logical extesnsions that are tough to abandon either way. So, do you then allow skills to use different abiity modifiers for different purposes? I'm OK with that, but it goes against the priniciple of streamlining skills, and that certainly seems to be a major goal of Saga.

Personally, I'd put Sense Motive in my aforementioned category of expanded utility, especially in Star Wars where gut instinct has a great value (even with non-force-sensitive characters like Han and Lando). Roll Sense Motive into a new skill, called "Intuition" or what have you, and expand its ability to read people and situations.

 

[iwatt]

I'm certainly happy to see some skills merged, but in other cases I'd rather see the skills remain separate and have their utility expanded.

I'd like that approach. (your Intuition idea is intersting and I'd like to know moer)

Personally, I feel that they might have merged too many skills, from the previews. But as mentioned by others, I think I'll wait till I know more.

 

[lvl20dm]

I've read design focused articles that have discussed the problems with skills in D&D. The big one is that, in designing content, you can never know what kind of skills a party is going to have. I believe when Mearls discussed skills in Iron Heroes, he justified skill groups using this rationale. This system, or something like it, would be huge step forward in game design (in my opinion) for a possible 4th edition. We'll need to seem some standard DCs and the like, but this is very promising.

Looking at combat is pretty interesting. The loss of iterative attacks, and it being replaced with a level based damage bonus, is very clever. I'd love to see designers weigh in on this - but this could drastically speed up high level gameplay ("My ranger now maked 9 sword attacks...commence to rollin'!). Two-weapon fighting will need to be carefully balanced, I imagine.

The Threshold and condition chart. I don't know why, but this doesn't seem like something they'd put in D&D. I love the idea, but I'm just not sure it fits in D&D (it could though, and would encourage a new subset of spells and abilities).

The "Defenses" are cool, but Star Wars d20 has always de-emphasized armor. I'd think that in D&D you would have an AC, then the Ref, Fort, and Will Defenses seperately.

 

[Felon]

Looking at combat is pretty interesting. The loss of iterative attacks, and it being replaced with a level based damage bonus, is very clever. I'd love to see designers weigh in on this - but this could drastically speed up high level gameplay ("My ranger now maked 9 sword attacks...commence to rollin'!). Two-weapon fighting will need to be carefully balanced, I imagine.

I applaud any changes to the combat system that decreases the world of difference between a 5 and 10 foot step.

However, the promised improved speed had me believing they'd actually reduce the number of actions taken in a round, allowing one standard action and perhaps a swift action. Drop the move action altogether.

The "Defenses" are cool, but Star Wars d20 has always de-emphasized armor. I'd think that in D&D you would have an AC, then the Ref, Fort, and Will Defenses seperately.

D&D has something of a split personality on the subject. Characters are supposed to be able to run, jump, climb, swim, and in general perform feats of derring-do, but heavy armor inhibits all of that. And drawing from fiction, I'd say heroes running around in full plate are the exception to the rule (sort of like the Fetts are in Star Wars).

 

[Felon]

Anyone notice there's no mention of attacks of opportunity?

 

[nerfherder]

Anyone notice there's no mention of attacks of opportunity?

On the Wizards board they've been mentioned by the designers - they're still around, but simplified.