D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?
- Thread starter Desdichado
- Start date
New Critical Hit System?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview5
Critical Hits
To speed up game play further, we simplified the way that critical hits work. In Saga Edition, a natural 20 is an automatic critical hit that deals double damage. All weapons default to this method of scoring a critical hit, though some talents and feats can augment critical hits in different ways. This change streamlines combat and encourages players to enjoy the rush of a natural 20. Rather than being deflated by a poor roll to confirm a critical hit, players can enjoy their natural 20 as an automatic success -- and a big one at that.
Of course, the change also means that low-level enemies, such as stormtroopers and battle droids, can hit a character pretty hard, making a critical hit a true critical hit regardless of the attacker's level.
Dave
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview5
Critical Hits
To speed up game play further, we simplified the way that critical hits work. In Saga Edition, a natural 20 is an automatic critical hit that deals double damage. All weapons default to this method of scoring a critical hit, though some talents and feats can augment critical hits in different ways. This change streamlines combat and encourages players to enjoy the rush of a natural 20. Rather than being deflated by a poor roll to confirm a critical hit, players can enjoy their natural 20 as an automatic success -- and a big one at that.
Of course, the change also means that low-level enemies, such as stormtroopers and battle droids, can hit a character pretty hard, making a critical hit a true critical hit regardless of the attacker's level.
Dave
Sir Brennen
Legend
Yep. The old argument for confirmation rolls on criticals was that it didn't make sense for a 1st level character and a 20th level character to get criticals at exactly the same rate. The Star Wars system addresses this by making criticals by higher level characters more devastating, since they get bonus damage based off of their level.
D&D, though, has a number of ways to artificially boost one's damage output, plus ways to increase threat range. In addition, D&D weapons have ways to make different types distinct yet somewhat balance by playing with threat ranges and crit multipliers. All of these things would need to be addressed in a new D&D edition, and I think this move away from "realism" (too use the term loosely) wouldn't neccessarily be received favorably.
Another reason I think the SWSE is a system designed to cater to the needs of it's own genre, not a testbed for 4E.
D&D, though, has a number of ways to artificially boost one's damage output, plus ways to increase threat range. In addition, D&D weapons have ways to make different types distinct yet somewhat balance by playing with threat ranges and crit multipliers. All of these things would need to be addressed in a new D&D edition, and I think this move away from "realism" (too use the term loosely) wouldn't neccessarily be received favorably.
Another reason I think the SWSE is a system designed to cater to the needs of it's own genre, not a testbed for 4E.
And this is further mitigated by the fact that non-heroic class levels don't even add bonus damage due to level. So, a high level Stormtrooper (for instance) would not get bonus damage to level, assuming he has levels only in the non-heroic class (what used to be called "warrior" in previous editions).
Easy (and common d20 system) house rule if one's still feeling the need to nerf mooks' critical hit capability: the mook's natural 20 plus attack bonus is only a critical hit if it actually beats the target's Reflex Defense ("AC"). Otherewise, it's merely an automatic hit.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
pawsplay said:
Tumble at full speed by taking -10 on the check. DC25 wouldn't be too hard for him.
Green Knight
First Post
I gotta say, I really like the idea behind the skill system.
1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus)
Let's say we got a character with a 14 in the relevant stat. So his bonus for a trained skill would be 1+2+5 = +8. +3 for an untrained skill. At 10th level, that same character would have a +12. 5+2+5= +12. And +7 in untrained skills. Hmm. How would that stack up to how it is, now, maxing out Skill Points at 1st level and adding one every level thereafter (and assuming we round up on the half-level thing), assuming a 14 stat?
LEVEL 1 +6 (3.5)/+8 (4E, supposedly)
LEVEL 2 +7/+8
LEVEL 3 +8/+9
LEVEL 4 +9/+9
LEVEL 5 +10/+10
LEVEL 6 +11/+10
LEVEL 7 +12/+11
LEVEL 8 +13/+11
LEVEL 9 +14/+12
LEVEL 10 +15/+12
LEVEL 11 +16/+13
LEVEL 12 +17/+13
LEVEL 13 +18/+14
LEVEL 14 +19/+14
LEVEL 15 +20/+15
LEVEL 16 +21/+15
LEVEL 17 +22/+16
LEVEL 18 +23/+16
LEVEL 19 +24/+17
LEVEL 20 +25/+17
Starts out higher, but advances more slowly. At Level 20, even with Skill Focus giving you a +5 bonus, you'll still be three points short. As for Untrained Skills...
LEVEL 1 +2 (3.5, with just the stat bonus)/+3 (4E)
LEVEL 2 +2/+3
LEVEL 3 +2/+4
LEVEL 4 +2/+4
LEVEL 5 +2/+5
LEVEL 6 +2/+5
LEVEL 7 +2/+6
LEVEL 8 +2/+6
LEVEL 9 +2/+7
LEVEL 10 +2/+7
LEVEL 11 +2/+8
LEVEL 12 +2/+8
LEVEL 13 +2/+9
LEVEL 14 +2/+9
LEVEL 15 +2/+10
LEVEL 16 +2/+10
LEVEL 17 +2/+11
LEVEL 18 +2/+11
LEVEL 19 +2/+12
LEVEL 20 +2/+12
Yeah, gotta say I like it. Makes Untrained Skills more useful, as they no longer get just the stat bonuses and nothing else. I also like the Trained Skills. Yeah, you can't get them as high as you could before (Especially with Skill Synergy's), but I prefer that those scores not climb into the stratosphere, anyway. And they start higher at low levels, so very nice.
And of course, Skill Focus became an awesome Feat. You'd definitely get more bang for your buck from it. Currently it's +3 and only applies to one skill. Not only is it +5 with this system, but it can effectively be applied to several skills (Skill Focus: Perception, for instance, is like giving Skill Focus to four skills at once. Listen, Spot, Search, and Sense Motive).
I wonder about Skills, though? How are Trained Skills determined? Is there any way to make an Untrained Skill a Trained Skill? I don't know about anyone else, but personally, I hope the skills aren't fixed in stone like they are now. For instance, take the Fighter. His skill selection is garbage. Must every Fighter have the same exact skill list?
What I'm hoping for is being able to choose which skills you want as your Trained Skills. For instance, they could say that Fighters could choose six Trained Skills. So those players who want to be Fighter knuckleheads can pick Intimidate, Swim, Jump, Climb, etc. While those who want to base their character around a knight, for instance, can pick skills like Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Ride, Perform, etc. And those who want to play swashbucklers can pick Deception, Sneak, and Jump. That's my personal wish, anyway, to be able to pick my Trained Skills. It'd certainly go a long way towards allowing players to create a character closer to whatever concept they've got in their heads.
All in all, I like these changes so far. Looks like I'm gonna have to run out and buy the new Star Wars book to get a peak at the rules for 4E, assuming these rules will see print in 4E. Just with 4th edition would come out, already. If this is any indication of what we can expect to see in it, then I want it to come out, already.
1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus)
Let's say we got a character with a 14 in the relevant stat. So his bonus for a trained skill would be 1+2+5 = +8. +3 for an untrained skill. At 10th level, that same character would have a +12. 5+2+5= +12. And +7 in untrained skills. Hmm. How would that stack up to how it is, now, maxing out Skill Points at 1st level and adding one every level thereafter (and assuming we round up on the half-level thing), assuming a 14 stat?
LEVEL 1 +6 (3.5)/+8 (4E, supposedly)
LEVEL 2 +7/+8
LEVEL 3 +8/+9
LEVEL 4 +9/+9
LEVEL 5 +10/+10
LEVEL 6 +11/+10
LEVEL 7 +12/+11
LEVEL 8 +13/+11
LEVEL 9 +14/+12
LEVEL 10 +15/+12
LEVEL 11 +16/+13
LEVEL 12 +17/+13
LEVEL 13 +18/+14
LEVEL 14 +19/+14
LEVEL 15 +20/+15
LEVEL 16 +21/+15
LEVEL 17 +22/+16
LEVEL 18 +23/+16
LEVEL 19 +24/+17
LEVEL 20 +25/+17
Starts out higher, but advances more slowly. At Level 20, even with Skill Focus giving you a +5 bonus, you'll still be three points short. As for Untrained Skills...
LEVEL 1 +2 (3.5, with just the stat bonus)/+3 (4E)
LEVEL 2 +2/+3
LEVEL 3 +2/+4
LEVEL 4 +2/+4
LEVEL 5 +2/+5
LEVEL 6 +2/+5
LEVEL 7 +2/+6
LEVEL 8 +2/+6
LEVEL 9 +2/+7
LEVEL 10 +2/+7
LEVEL 11 +2/+8
LEVEL 12 +2/+8
LEVEL 13 +2/+9
LEVEL 14 +2/+9
LEVEL 15 +2/+10
LEVEL 16 +2/+10
LEVEL 17 +2/+11
LEVEL 18 +2/+11
LEVEL 19 +2/+12
LEVEL 20 +2/+12
Yeah, gotta say I like it. Makes Untrained Skills more useful, as they no longer get just the stat bonuses and nothing else. I also like the Trained Skills. Yeah, you can't get them as high as you could before (Especially with Skill Synergy's), but I prefer that those scores not climb into the stratosphere, anyway. And they start higher at low levels, so very nice.
And of course, Skill Focus became an awesome Feat. You'd definitely get more bang for your buck from it. Currently it's +3 and only applies to one skill. Not only is it +5 with this system, but it can effectively be applied to several skills (Skill Focus: Perception, for instance, is like giving Skill Focus to four skills at once. Listen, Spot, Search, and Sense Motive).
I wonder about Skills, though? How are Trained Skills determined? Is there any way to make an Untrained Skill a Trained Skill? I don't know about anyone else, but personally, I hope the skills aren't fixed in stone like they are now. For instance, take the Fighter. His skill selection is garbage. Must every Fighter have the same exact skill list?
What I'm hoping for is being able to choose which skills you want as your Trained Skills. For instance, they could say that Fighters could choose six Trained Skills. So those players who want to be Fighter knuckleheads can pick Intimidate, Swim, Jump, Climb, etc. While those who want to base their character around a knight, for instance, can pick skills like Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Ride, Perform, etc. And those who want to play swashbucklers can pick Deception, Sneak, and Jump. That's my personal wish, anyway, to be able to pick my Trained Skills. It'd certainly go a long way towards allowing players to create a character closer to whatever concept they've got in their heads.
All in all, I like these changes so far. Looks like I'm gonna have to run out and buy the new Star Wars book to get a peak at the rules for 4E, assuming these rules will see print in 4E. Just with 4th edition would come out, already. If this is any indication of what we can expect to see in it, then I want it to come out, already.
Green Knight said:
The way it works in Saga is
- each class has a list of class skills
- each class grants a certain number of trained skills at character level 1 (Nonheroic - 1, Jedi - 2, Soldier - 3, Scout - 4, Scoundrel - 5, Noble - 6)
- all characters get a number of bonus trained skills based on their int modifier
- humans get an extra trained skill
- you can take the Skill Training feat to become trained in any class skill (note that in Saga, you usually get far more feats than anyone in D&D except single-classed fighters)
Green Knight
First Post
Ok, so if we were to compare it to D&D...
A Fighter (The D&D equivalent of the Soldier) gets the following class skills automatically: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, Swim.
The Fighter would also allow a player to choose an extra couple skills as Trained Skills. Assuming the Fighter/Soldier comparison holds, that means three skills. So I could add, say, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), and Perform to that list.
Let's assume that same Fighter has Int 12. So that would give me yet another Trained Skill. So I could take, for example, Survival.
Last but not least, it's a Human Fighter, which grants another Trained Skill (This is something I've always thought humans should be able to do. Grant another class skill). In this case I'll go with Gather Information.
So to sum up, this Human Fighter would have the following as Trained Skills: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Perform, Ride, Survival, and Swim. Is that the basic gist of how it works in Saga? If so, then that's fantastic! It's a great way to handle things.
Let's assume a Level 1 Human Fighter with 25 point buy with the following stats:
STR 15, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA 13
His Trained Skills would have bonuses as follows:
Climb +8, Craft +7, Diplomacy +7, Gather Information +7, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +7, Jump +8, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) +7, Perform +7, Ride +6, Survival +5, Swim +8.
What I especially love about the elimination of Skill Points is the ability to take what I call "Roleplay Skills" without penalizing the character. Perform, for instance, and Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty). Those skills are there for flavor more than anything else. To represent a character who isn't just "a fighter", but a knight. But to take them I'd have to sacrifice Skill Points which can be better spent in other skills which give you more tangible rewards. Thanks to this system, though, you can have both crunch and roleplay. It's very nice.
A Fighter (The D&D equivalent of the Soldier) gets the following class skills automatically: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, Swim.
The Fighter would also allow a player to choose an extra couple skills as Trained Skills. Assuming the Fighter/Soldier comparison holds, that means three skills. So I could add, say, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), and Perform to that list.
Let's assume that same Fighter has Int 12. So that would give me yet another Trained Skill. So I could take, for example, Survival.
Last but not least, it's a Human Fighter, which grants another Trained Skill (This is something I've always thought humans should be able to do. Grant another class skill). In this case I'll go with Gather Information.
So to sum up, this Human Fighter would have the following as Trained Skills: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Perform, Ride, Survival, and Swim. Is that the basic gist of how it works in Saga? If so, then that's fantastic! It's a great way to handle things.
Let's assume a Level 1 Human Fighter with 25 point buy with the following stats:
STR 15, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA 13
His Trained Skills would have bonuses as follows:
Climb +8, Craft +7, Diplomacy +7, Gather Information +7, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +7, Jump +8, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) +7, Perform +7, Ride +6, Survival +5, Swim +8.
What I especially love about the elimination of Skill Points is the ability to take what I call "Roleplay Skills" without penalizing the character. Perform, for instance, and Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty). Those skills are there for flavor more than anything else. To represent a character who isn't just "a fighter", but a knight. But to take them I'd have to sacrifice Skill Points which can be better spent in other skills which give you more tangible rewards. Thanks to this system, though, you can have both crunch and roleplay. It's very nice.
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