D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[ashockney]

Faster character development - check
Less lethal at low levels - check
Significantly simpler/more elegant at high levels - check
Simpler class system - check
More options for character customization - check
Simpler combat mechanics - check (one roll for attacker)
Simpler damage resolution - check
More "heroic" damage mechanic - check
Simpler skill system - check

4th Edition Test Drive - check

Selling a crap-load of SAGA system to D&D nuts on ENWorld - check
Count me in - check

I come to ENWorld to get in early and often on the latest and greatest in gaming, and I've got to admit this link/article is the most excited I've been since the original 2nd Edition days when Eric posted an early link to the cleric domain spell lists that went over the concepts of "domains" and included cleric spells up to 9th level! That's when it really turned a corner for me, and I was forced to IMMEDIATELY start tinkering with 2nd Edition to make it look more and more like what was being projected in 3rd edition.

 

[ashockney]

I prefer the stronger character archetypes.

I like the direction they're headed with simpler more efficient base classes and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of talent tree and prestige class character customization in order to differentiate your characters. This simpler system has the potential to me to remain more "balanced" but would allow us greater flexibility to really make 100 warriors with no two looking the same.

 

[ashockney]

Sounds like some of you may have more info on the new system than the article provides. I don't, but just looking at the wookie, here's what I notice:

• Merged skills (Stealth and Perception)
• Endurance as a skill and not a feat (I'm the first and only person I know of who ever suggested that)
• 26 hit points with a 15 Con? Even with 3dX, that's a lot of HP. Maybe Endurance helps.
• +0 BAB for the scout (in D20M, it's pretty rare for a character to have the BA progression that many warriors in D&D take for granted)
• Insanely high saves for a 1st-level character by D&D standards
• Threshold equal to Fort save
• No Def bonus listed (use Ref save instead?)
• 5 ranks in skills at 1st level

Great analysis Felon. Also, of note here is the interesting thing going on with Damage from a weapon. They've changed the mechanic around to make weapons more deadly (significantly compared to D&D), and seem to be pulling way back on the "iterative" increases. There is a possibility here that things like STR and CON and BAB will be reduced in their effectiveness in order to lessen the overall impact.

Also, does anyone have a link to these talent trees somewhere? I've never been a player of d20 modern so I've not had a chance to see them.

 

[Shadeydm]

Weaker character archtypes will be a powergamers delight as it will encourage and reward cherry picking of powers and abilities. This problem will grow exponentially worse as the slew of character option books are released further promoting the cherry picking and dramatically increasing the likelyhood that people will easily be able to "break" the game. I think the power creep in this kind of game will be on a scale we haven't experience yet in DnD.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The last GenCon my friend was at (which was this past GenCon), he said the WotC people said they had no plans for 4E, but these forums seem to keep insisting that a 4E is coming out. Weird...

 

[ashockney]

The last GenCon my friend was at (which was this past GenCon), he said the WotC people said they had no plans for 4E, but these forums seem to keep insisting that a 4E is coming out. Weird...

What a perfect cover!

"4th Ed! No! We're not working on a 4th ed. We've not spent a single minute on a 4th edition for D&D. But... you should see our new Star Wars. "

 

[Nifft]

Weaker character archtypes will be a powergamers delight as it will encourage and reward cherry picking of powers and abilities. [...] I think the power creep in this kind of game will be on a scale we haven't experience yet in DnD.

I think powergamers have a lot of fun in D&D as-is, and if you think the scale will change due to anything relating to Star Wars, I question if you've actually seen these "powergamer" beasties in the wild.

Look at the stuff in the WotC CharOpt forum. Generic classes don't much show up there, and those certainly do weaken archtypes.

Nope, what shows up there are:
- Absurdly front-loaded classes (typically thus because an archtype requires it); and
- Absurdly bad spells.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Felon]

If we assume they're target numbers, that makes them 10+D&D save...
So:
Ref +3 (Dex +0, +3 bonus), Fort +4 (Con +2, +2 bonus), Will +2 (Wis +1, +1 bonus)

This was the only sense I was able to make out of them as well. Although it makes me wonder how saving throws will work as we know them now.

Max on those first three dice, but Con only gets added once. So, 3*8+2=26.

I certainly hope that's not the case, giving characters a ton of hit points up-front, but a positive Con mod only adds a few at most.

Actually, those are fairly low. What it appears has happened is that saves now work like AC/Defense did--a fixed number the attacker rolls against. The description of the Force Haze talent reinforces this.

I can't say I'd like to see this cow killed. I enjoy the sight of characters desperately rolling their saves against fireballs.

Well, +5 plus stat bonus to skills--ranks are a thing of the past, according to other statements by the designers.

So, basically reducing the difficulty of a DC by one grade (Very Difficult merely becomes Difficult)?

 

[Felon]

Weaker character archtypes will be a powergamers delight as it will encourage and reward cherry picking of powers and abilities. This problem will grow exponentially worse as the slew of character option books are released further promoting the cherry picking and dramatically increasing the likelyhood that people will easily be able to "break" the game. I think the power creep in this kind of game will be on a scale we haven't experience yet in DnD.

Weakening archetypes represents "power creep"?

Powergamers don't need encouragement. Weak archetypes, strong archetypes, medium archetypes, whatever--some gamers will always want their characters to be badasses. I'm not sure why powerful characters represent a "problem", or how "cherry-picking" is a problem in a game where you're supposed to pick cherries.

In short, I don't see any merit in what you're saying.

 

[Felon]

So, what's the big plan for skills? Currently, the awarding of skill points is a big feature of leveling. If there are no more ranks, then do they only improve indirectly, through feats and talents? Do characters continue to gain skills as they gain levels?