D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[iwatt]

Huh? Why? The mechanical distinction disappears, but cinematically, if a wookie is trying to use Persuasion on a bounty hunter, I'm guessing he's not trying to sweet talk the guy. If Obi-Wan is doing it, I'm thinking there's going to be a little wave of the hand involved, as well. Role-playing the mechanic moves to the fore-front, and that's a good thing, IMHO.

Exactly. Persuading is persuading is persuading. Everybody does it a different way. Lookign at the Use the Force skill, i could see some sub-categories like intimidate, barter, befirend, etc..

Wookies have the ability to reroll persuasion checks when used to intimdate. They won't be able to reroll checks when trying to barter or to befreind others. I assume class talents will work similarly (nobles will get talents based on more diplomatic uses of persuasion, bounty hunters will probably get something similar to wookies, etc...)

 

[Wanderer20]

I totally agree with Matthias about the skill modifications, as do my group (though we play Ravenloft).

A so-simplified skill system makes impossible to portray all non-heroic characters from every setting. I know Star Wars (which we played) is much more heroic than Ravenloft, but, huh, never heard of the Expert class?

The difference between heroes and commoners should not done in the hardcode of the game mechanics, but with the right assignment of Bab, skill ranks and base saving throws. This way when you put someone under a saving throw (that won't even exist anymore, what if the DM needed to roll secretly to grant success/failure when the PC rolls a natural 1 or 20?) or opposed check you can see whether he/she is heroic or not.

Not to mention the poorness of merging Listen&Spot with Search and Sense Motive into Perception, or Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy into Persuasion.

I'm happy this has been throughly debated so I have not to write my 50 lines, but I agree that the result is: everyone will have every significant skill, and in a non-realistic way (I could see the use of merging Listen and Spot, or Bluff and Disguise, or Diplomacy and Gather Information, or Hide and Move Silently, but all these examples are based upon the same ability). And just this: there will be a hero without Persuasion, given the fact almost every PC now has one of the three skills that will be merged onto it?

And simplifying the opposed skill check is also bad: if the main factor is the character level, the difference between two 14-level Scoundrels trained in Perception is 14 + Wis (+ skill focus); assuming one has Wis 10 and the other Wis 17 (the first one has a commoner's Wisdom, the second one is a top-level spotter) and both take skill focus(Perception) to maximize it: they roll 19 vs 22!! Almost 40%-60%!! To make a long story short, a top-level spotter cannot think to best his commoneralike counterpart on regular basis, while in 3.5 the two could be translated in: two 14th level Rogues, same Wisdom, save the fact the one with Wis 10 will not maximize Spot or Listen (more like only one of the two to save ranks, let's say Listen) because he knows plenty of rogues with better Wis will beat him (he'll probably maximize something he's good at, maybe he has low Wis but 18 Dex or Cha), and the second one will maximize both with probably Alertness: they roll 17 + 0 vs 17 +3 +2...17 vs 22 (Around 25%-75% but a student of statistic could give us the exact value); if you consider this example correct (I have no doubt many won't), in 3.5 the second Rogue was a good Listener while the first was a decent one, just because he has it as a class skill.

Thesis following: "If the PCs can only choose among maximized and not-maximised skills, PCs' distinction will be lesser and the game will be worse"

Um, sorry for the long post...

 

[Matthias]

With all of these changes in the SWSE, if they're thinking about implementing them in D&D, I can see shifting saves to an attack roll but overall it sounds like too much at once.

As has been mentioned by others, kill enough sacred cows and D&D won't be D&D any more.

If WOTC likes the changes they're making with SWSE, let them implement them all and build a whole new d20 fantasy RPG out of it (call it 'Fantasy Wars' for lack of a real name), and leave D&D the way it is. There's no rule that says WOTC can only ever support one fantasy d20 RPG.

What's more, WOTC could publish the requisite core rulebook and continue to publish accessories that are cross-compatible with both D&D and Fantasy Wars, or publish mostly compatible stuff that has elements specific to D&D or Fantasy Wars game mechanics (not unlike the special notes given for Rokugan-specific material in Oriental Adventures, or Eberronian- or Faerûnian-specific info for monsters in the Monster Manuals).

 

[Stalker0]

the difference between two 14-level Scoundrels trained in Perception is 14 + Wis (+ skill focus); assuming one has Wis 10 and the other Wis 17 (the first one has a commoner's Wisdom, the second one is a top-level spotter) and both take skill focus(Perception) to maximize it: they roll 19 vs 22!!

In this scenario, the better guy has a 66% chance of winning, and the other guy a 34%, that "small" bonus gives the better man a 2/3's advantage!!

Further, you gave them both skill focus, that means they are both good spotters, so it makes sense that their numbers are close.

And this is of course assuming people will take skill focus, we will have to see. I'm just glad that now with more feats and the fact SF is +5, maybe it will get taken.

 

[iwatt]

In this scenario, the better guy has a 66% chance of winning, and the other guy a 34%, that "small" bonus gives the better man a 2/3's advantage!!

Further, you gave them both skill focus, that means they are both good spotters, so it makes sense that their numbers are close.

And this is of course assuming people will take skill focus, we will have to see. I'm just glad that now with more feats and the fact SF is +5, maybe it will get taken.

and who knows what talents they can take to make them even better at perception.

 

[Kunimatyu]

After reading preview 4, the level-based damage bonus strikes me as a great substitution for iterative attacks.

Naysayers aside, I can confidently say that I'd love most to all of these changes in core D&D. It even preserves the sacred cow of HP while instituting a damage track so it's possible to have characters suffer the effects of being hit repeatedly with sharp pointy objects! Yay!

 

[mrswing]

They're using swift actions! NOOOOOOOO....!!!!

The other changes are on the whole fairly promising though. I like the approach to defense a lot, something which could be applied to D&D proper straightway.

 

[Kunimatyu]

They're using swift actions! NOOOOOOOO....!!!!

The other changes are on the whole fairly promising though. I like the approach to defense a lot, something which could be applied to D&D proper straightway.

Mechanically I don't hate the swift action.

In terms of new players learning the system, though, I'm not certain that was the best idea. I'll wait and see.

I'm *very* curious to see if Attacks of Opportunity get the axe.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Persuasion is another big problem. There are worlds of difference between trying to persuade someone into giving you what you want, lying to get what you want, and threatening naked force to get what you want.

Just a note - I think that bluff is in a separate skill called deception, not part of persuasion, so the skill agglomeration isn't as bad as you think.

Personally I'd move sense motive into either deception or persuasion though (I'll decide when I see the full details)

 

[Mokona]

If I were in charge I'd be putting out games like Saga Edition with "potential" rules for 4th edition D&D. Then I'd observe the actual appeal and in-play use of the ability before deciding to include it in 4th edition.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3422530&postcount=55

I am really excited by the new Star Wars rules but I wouldn't want Wizards of the Coast to use them for 4th edition yet. Wait until we've seen some actual player use of Saga Edition. Then release 4th edition incorporating any lessons learned from Saga (4e becomes sorta Saga v1.5).