Star Wars Saga Edition [SECR] Preview #1 is Up

[Ranger REG]

Because, at least in theory, one of the major slowdowns in high level d20 combat comes from reams of stacking and non-stacking bonuses. It's perhaps more of a problem in D&D, but even in d20 Modern you have situations where a PC gets, to Defense alone:

Class Bonus (A high level d20 Modern character)
Armor Bonus (wearing armor)
Cover Bonus (while behind 1/2 cover)
Circumstance Bonus (with some improvised camouflage)
Morale Bonus (being Tactically Aided by a character with the Soldier AdC.)

And that's before you add FX effects.

Simplifying the actual numerical bonuses goes a long way toward speeding up the d20-based miniatures games while still having a lot of flexibility via keyword mechanics. I'm hoping that's what we're seeing here.

That would mean making a benefit cut. So which one you want to drop?

 

[Ranger REG]

That previews looks pretty cool. I'm not too keen on the talent tree for the sentinel though. But I guess that there will be other ones available that are not so focused on the light vs. dark side aspect.

Personally, I would have liked to see one of the Scout talent trees, since they offered us a peek at the scout character stats.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Personally, I would have liked to see one of the Scout talent trees, since they offered us a peek at the scout character stats.

And then they would have had a people pestering them for even more Jedi-related stuff.

Besides, I'm sure we'll see more of what's in the Scout talent trees, as well as for other classes, once the Alliance vs. Empire previews start rolling out later this month, as they are (from what I remember hearing over on the WotC forums) going to be using the SECR ruleset.

 

[Jer]

Because, at least in theory, one of the major slowdowns in high level d20 combat comes from reams of stacking and non-stacking bonuses. It's perhaps more of a problem in D&D, but even in d20 Modern you have situations where a PC gets, to Defense alone:

Class Bonus (A high level d20 Modern character)
Armor Bonus (wearing armor)
Cover Bonus (while behind 1/2 cover)
Circumstance Bonus (with some improvised camouflage)
Morale Bonus (being Tactically Aided by a character with the Soldier AdC.)

And that's before you add FX effects.

Simplifying the actual numerical bonuses goes a long way toward speeding up the d20-based miniatures games while still having a lot of flexibility via keyword mechanics. I'm hoping that's what we're seeing here.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. But really, the problems are with the circumstance bonuses and the way stacking works in d20. I understand why they decided to go with the stacking rules, but they've turned out to be somewhat cumbersome in practice (especially post 10th level).

Although I think that RangerREG is right, if you cut these things down you're going to lose out on benefit somewhere, meaning that the overall scale is going to change too. It is a dilly of a pickly, so to speak.

 

[Pagan priest]

Ah, I see what you're saying now. But really, the problems are with the circumstance bonuses and the way stacking works in d20. I understand why they decided to go with the stacking rules, but they've turned out to be somewhat cumbersome in practice (especially post 10th level).

Although I think that RangerREG is right, if you cut these things down you're going to lose out on benefit somewhere, meaning that the overall scale is going to change too. It is a dilly of a pickly, so to speak.

It's not that much of a problem IF the people in the game (and especially the GM) actually know the rules and are capable of simple addition without taking their shoes and socks off. Combat only slows down when you have people at the table that can't be bothered to read any of the rules. Of course, I don't think that is a d20 phenomenon, that would hold true in any game system.

 

[lukelightning]

Star Wars has the advantage of having far fewer types of modifiers than D&D, as well as fewer things that give modifiers, e.g. no magic rings of protection (though I think there were some in KotOR...).

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

It's not that much of a problem IF the people in the game (and especially the GM) actually know the rules and are capable of simple addition without taking their shoes and socks off. Combat only slows down when you have people at the table that can't be bothered to read any of the rules. Of course, I don't think that is a d20 phenomenon, that would hold true in any game system.

So you can do simple addition literally instantly? Not in an unnoticeable amount of time (because in theory that would add up to a noticeable amount if you were faced with a sufficient number of addition problems), but instantly?

Right, didn't think so.

EVERY process you have to think about during gameplay generates potential slowdown. Even if it's a tenth of a second per operation, you could easily take up multiple seconds on a single complicated action. If it's longer - and for a great many people who are "capable of simple addition without taking their shoes and socks off" it nonetheless WILL be longer - you find yourself with a significant source of slowdown. Even leaving aside from the idea that players need to memorize a (simple at it's core, but almost entirely exceptions-based) system cover to cover before play.

The issue is never, in a well-designed game, whether a given rule will cause slowdown - it will. The issues are a) will it remove as much as or more than it causes (by clarifying multiple exceptions-based cases into a single, slightly more complicated rule, for example), and b) will it add more fun than the slowdown takes away.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Yeah, what MoogleEmpMog said.

It's not so much doing the adding as remembering the rules for each thing that adds (or subtracts) from a die roll.

Players aren't just doing "10 + 2 - 1 + 1 + 2 = 14". They're doing "Okay, My Attack bonus is 10, plus I charged, that's +2. I'm on the steps below McSneery. Is that a minus one? Or does he just get the +1 for higher ground? Ah, I'll just take the minus one. I have AlmostBannedSpell and CoolNewSpell on me for another +3. Wait, do they stack? (Flip, flip, flip) Yeah, okay, one's a Dumb Luck bonus and the other is Chutzpah, so they do. Okay, so what's that so far? 15? Errr, 14. Right. Wait, did I count charging already?"

You have to remember the rules surrounding each bonus, plus remember to remember them all. That is where having too many bonus types get to be an issue, possibly slowing a game down considerably, and one's ability to do math is only slightly related to the problem.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Sci-Fi - Star Wars Sage Edition Preview #1 is Up

I'm aware of the new Saga edition, but what is this Sage edition you speak of?!

 

[Ranger REG]

I'm aware of the new Saga edition, but what is this Sage edition you speak of?!

That's okay. I corrected the title right before I read your post when I noticed something isn't right.