Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
What?! TLJ grossed over a $1B and has good reviews (see above). You should actually collect facts before assuming your opinion is representative of a huge number of people.
Star Wars What I Would Have Done
GreyLord
Legend
Okay...I can see someone did not read a thing I wrote...either that or didn't understand what I wrote.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
I think to grokked you. You clearly said TLJ was a "disaster" for the "casual fans." A "disaster" that's one of tge highest grossing movies of all time (inflation adjusted) and that has positive reviews. You base this on reception of a different movie and toy sales being sluggish, apparently. It's riduculous, especially since there are already good explanations for both that don't invlove TLJ (Solo wasn't a desired story and had very expensive production, frex.) You even counter yourself when you say toy sales are down but it's not the toy company's fault, but also that the toys are boring and unfun. How does that work, exactly?
Again, you've started with thinking you know what a group of fans likes and are ignoring strong counter-evidence or just hand-waving it away. That's not how it works, man.
Again, you've started with thinking you know what a group of fans likes and are ignoring strong counter-evidence or just hand-waving it away. That's not how it works, man.
Jester David
Hero
This was ALWAYS going to happen. There was no way around it. To have a sequel you need conflict and drama. You need a problem to be solved. An enemy. The galaxy needs to be in danger.That inherently means the heroes had to fail. The Empire need to come back. There's no way around it beyond pulling a brand new unseen enemy out of your ass and forcing it into the world. And that almost never works and everyone would complain "this doesn't feel like Star Wars".
No True Scotsman. He's the thing… there is a big spike of people rating this movie a "1" is high. Higher than Phantom Menace. But a solid majority of viewers rate this movie the same or higher than Phantom Menace. The people who hate the movie are a small, insignificant percentage. Most people, casual AND hardcore *liked* this film.
Based on what? The one data point we have is Solo, but it's foolish to draw any reliable conclusion from a single data point. Maybe people just didn't want a Solo movie? Maybe people were scared off by the drama of the changing directors? Maybe it came too soon after TLJ and people weren't ready for more Star Wars. Maybe too many people needed a break from big blockbuster movies after Deadpool 2 released the week before and Infinity War three weeks prior? People seem very excited for both the new Star Wars streaming shows on Disney+ and Episode IX.
Because kids care about the quality of a movie when they buy their toys? Yeah… I don't think so. I have an eight-year-old. He'll watch anything.The toys were released too far ahead of the movie, so they weren't available during holidays, or when people cared about the movie. They dropped in September and weren't able to hold interest until December. Also, if you read the toy threads, the big complaint is that the diversity of the toys is limited. There were fewer new aliens, vehicles, and the like. Toys bought from the previous movie would work. And there's some complaints about quality. It's unrelated to TLJ and would have happened even if TLJ was a smash.
That's just wrong.It isn't limited to Star Wars. Toy sales are down across the board. By 2%. Haso revenue dropped 2% as well. But rival Mattel dropped 12%And Toys R Us closing also hit toy sales hard, as there were fewer places to buy said toys.
BS.There is a very clear racist and sexist hatred for the movie and its actors. Again, when you look at the number of 1-star ratings for the film, that percentage is twice as high for men than women. If the film was just bad, both genders would rate it equally, like they had done with every prior Star Wars film.While you may believe your own complaints aren't based in misogyny (I can't say) don't kid yourself and pretend the hatred doesn't exist.
RUINED FOREVER!!TLJ made 1.3 billion at the box office alone, and an untold amount on disc, VOD, and steaming. That's probably pure profit of 3/4 of a billion dollars. That's deep trouble?Does anyone remotely think for a SECOND that Episode IX won't do equally well? Especially since it will have been a year-and-a-half since Solo and people are already gagging for more Star Wars...
Zardnaar
Legend
TFA made 700 million on 2 billion so yeah IIDK if TLJ actually made that much I assume they spent less pushing it in places like CHina where they flew a heap of stormtroopers out to pose on the wall.
I'm not pretending the hatred doesn't exist, squeaky wheels tend to get as lot of grease. TLJ is not a one star movie, its way to early to call IX one way or another. THeres enough wrong with TLJ as is I htink from plot points or likeable charatcers or where tdo you go from here.
For example if you are a Rey fan what do you do with her in IX. Do you want her to defeat Kylo or redeem him or something else. Kylo is weak he has been losing since TFA so its not very dramatic if he loses again. What hobbies or interests does Rey have (Luke wanted to go to the academy).
Getting away from Rey we'll look at Finn. He runs like a coward in TFA. We'll give him a pass it happens early in the movie, like Han towards the end of the movie he is a hero- he has found his courage. TLJ rolls around and he is running again back to where he started.
Poe. Was not actually in TFA that much but we know he is a damn good pilot and that is shown later in the film. TLJ rolls around he he gets his squadron killed of to the last man (women), even the death star run had a few survivors. They portray him as a hot head right through the film.
Kylo Ren.
Comes across as a whiny kid. They didnt seem to follow up on his thing about Snoke training him at the end of TFA.
HUx
Hux was great in TFA, I kinda want to pay money to see him lose. Gets used as comic relief.
Phasma.
Potentially a great new character. And then she oses again for the 2nd movie in a row. Looks kewl her look can't back up her lameness as a villain.
Snoke
Heres your new big bad, he is interesting and now he is dead. It was kind of clever how they portrayed him reading Kylos mood though. They got rid of him a one movie to early this would have been a great scene for the 3rd movie.
And this is how the characters are barely tied together. They were hinting at a romance angle with Rey and Finn for example. Nope that lead no where as well. Anaklns lightsaber scene in TFA interesting yes, nope it got broken. New big ass ship, nope got trashed as well. JJ seeded lots of little plot hooks. There is subverting audience expectations (the farm girl saves the prince) and then there is the chainsaw approach. They never even really put much effort into explaining the First Order and how they are so powerful post Endor. A simple line about the rebirth of the empire rising from the ashes would have been fine you don't need to put a massive amount into it.
Its not just limited to Rey its everything good from TFA basically was not followed up on or thrown away. As bad at TPM and AotC were (and they were bad) it had better world building and character development. Didn't care about Anakin or Padme in the prequels that much but Obi Wan was good. Anakin was decent enough in RoTS.
And its not just Rey using force powers untrained we have a kid using telekinesis as well. Seeing Rey plow through everything unscathed might work alright in a different genre like a super hero movie but even in an action movie the protagonist isn't usually portrayed as invincible. John McClane in Die Hard. Kinda works better in cartoons.
The reason people seem excited about the Disney cartoons was Rebels was very good, tied it back to the OT and Clone Wars well and used returning characters like Thrawn and Ahsoka well. Ahsoka was annoying when she debuted (because she was a kid a'la Anakin in TPM) but she is great now. You also cared about the new characters like Sabine, Hera, Ezra. The best Star Wars since the OT has been the cartoons.
Fantasy Booking
TFA mostly as is. In the end scene Kylo kills Han, Chewie takes the shot. Kylo being a powerful bad guy negates it a'la vader, uses somethign like a force shield or feels it coming and dodges it.
Rey gets away and the movie proceeds to the duel. Kylo is unwounded and owns Rey+ Finn but they survive but Kylo is wounded in the duel (the heroes flee). Otherwise the duel roughly happens as is. The crack opens in the ground and the movie ends more or less as is.
In a hypothetical part XIII Rey gets trained, Kylo also gets trained, Snoke sends him out and about and Rey and him have a brief encounter. Like Anakin and Obi Wan they try using force powers on each other but they counter it. Episode XIII ends Snoke is still around and Rey+Kylos encounter is a draw. In Part IX Rey encounters Lukes force ghost, some revelation, later on we get the final. They have the throne room scene and then Rey and Kylo face each other and if its a combat Rey wins. All this really changes is.
1. Kylo is powerful in TFA. He is an effective villain can stop blaster bolts in mid air and can dodge bowcaster shots or otherwise survive them.
2. While powerful he is not vader. Gets more training, so does Kylo. Rey is a better student, encounter 2 is a draw makes it different from Empire where Vader wins.
3. Something happens to Rey and she gets even more powerful (she learns to draw on the dark side perhaps). She has enough power to now go and defeat Kylo/Snoke. Anakin and Luke both took down Sith lords in the 3rd movie, Snoke/Kylo are not Sith but you get my point.
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Jester David
Hero
It's not nearly as hard as you make it.
Heck, after Empire it looked like Star Wars 3 would be all about saving Han and a big rescue mission. Instead, they resolved that whole plot arc in like 15 minutes and then moved on, pretty much dropping most of the seeds sown by THE BEST Star Wars movie in favour of recycling the plot of Star Wars 1.
There's no shortage of directions they can go.
Heck, it's significantly easier to think of storylines for Episode IX than it was to think of a story for Episode VII.
Story Hook 1: Hux vs Ren
The Resistance has gone to ground, hiding and rebuilding its numbers, waiting for its time to strike. The First Order has been cementing its grip but the tensions between General Hux and Kylo Ren for control and leadership have been growing, and are now reaching a climax. With the First Order poised to turn on itself, they're distracted and now is the Resistance's time to strike a decisive blow.
Story Hook 2: Knights of Ren
Seeking to end the threat of Rey before she can become a full Jedi and begin training others, Ren dispatches his Knights to hunt her down.
The story is more of a chase, as Rey tries to elude the knights, fighting them when she thinks she has the advantage. But the longer the hunt goes on the more tired and injured she becomes.
Story Hook 3: Another Spherical Super Weapon
This is almost certainly what they'll do, because Abrams hasn't had an original idea and all his films copy something else. So he'll do a big homage to Return of the Jedi and cycle back to the First Order making yet another planet destroying weapon that a fleet of ships needs to blow up.
[video=youtube;yd0j97RhZUQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0j97RhZUQ[/video]
Regardless, Episode IX will be about the death of Kylo Ren.
He's the final member of the Skywalker line, which has been the heart of the "Star Wars Saga". He needs to die and end that storyline, freeing up the franchise to go in different directions rather than being shackled to the idea of an Episode X, which will invariably have to negate the victories of the heroes in Episode IX.
I'll come out and say it: Rebels was okay at best. A far cry from the amazing peaks of Clone Wars.
Rebels got better but it started weak. Really weak. Nowhere planet. Irrelevant stakes. Unlikable characters. Plus, having a surviving Jedi that lived despite being a young Padawan, making the deaths of so many trained Jedi seem cheap and minimizes the survival of Obi-Wan and Yoda.
It got better around the later seasons when they started building to the Rebel Alliance and brought in Ashoka. But they couldn't even give her a proper death and chickened out.
And funny how you're silent about Resistance...
Zardnaar
Legend
IDK what Resistance is about. And there is a reaosn RotJ is regarded as the weakest of the original 3.
I liked Season 2 of rebels on. Found it easier to get into than season 1 of TCW.
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Jester David
Hero
[video=youtube;m7Pls-vYWwM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Pls-vYWwM[/video]
Neonchameleon
Legend
Luke in his first time in combat and his first time in an X-wing went up against professional elite pilots and kicked their asses while outflying almost all the experienced Rebel Alliance pilots. He then makes a literally impossible shot, turning off his targeting computer when Obi-Wan tells him to use the force.
As for the lightsaber battle, if you watched then Darth Emo was kicking Rey's ass despite her being an experienced staff-fighter (established earlier in the story; there's far more textual evidence Rey could handle herself in melee in actual combat than that Rey had flown anything more than his speeder). And then he made a mistake - he told her to use the force at which point she called on the dark side of the force (seriously, look at her face during that scene - that isn't peace and serenity or other light side things) and was able to overcome what had previously been impossible for her. They both had help from a more experienced force user in order to pull off their huge thing at the end.
The three big differences are that kicking Darth Emo's ass when he isn't using the force isn't that humanly impossible, being thrown in the deep end and swimming by having your mind invaded, then by force of will reversing it and seeing how to use the force from inside the head of a force user (as Rey did) is far more useful in learning to use the Force than poncing around with a blindfold against shock globes (which is about the equivalent of water wings in the baby pool), and her skills are legitimately gained with staff fighting (and she fought with the lightsaber as if it was a staff) rather than beyond professional in her first fight nonsense with an X-wing
You may want to watch that movie again, Luke gets saved from the professional elite pilots by Han.
If it was Rey then she would have just killed them all herself while all the other X-Wings watch, she is that good.
