5E Starter Set Cleric Sheet

Agamon

Adventurer
If the intent is to "flatten the math" and thus keep the numbers smaller for longer, why are the stat bonuses still linear (a la 3e) rather than bell-curved a la 1e?

If all the bonuses other than +0 had their actual number reduced by one (thus making 6-7 -1, 8-13 the +0 range, 14-15 +1, etc.) wouldn't that help keep the numbers smaller? Particularly if they went linear from there rather than accelerating like 1e did toward the extremes.
Stat bonuses are a part of the base, where it goes from there is where the flatter math actually matters. Giving different PCs a higher stat bonus at the start makes them a bit more different mechanically.
 

Capricia

Villager
One thing I'm not liking is how different Preserve Life is from Second Wind.

Second Wind heals 1d10+Level and takes a Bonus (minor) Action, but can only target the fighter.

Preserve Life heals 5*Level and takes an Action, can only heal characters up to half their hp, but can spread the healing out in precise numbers among multiple allies.

At level 2, Fighter gets 1d10+2, averaging to 7.5. Cleric gets 10. So from the start it's already outstripped, with the cleric version being 33% stronger.

At level 10, Fighter gets 1d10+10, average of 15.5, while the cleric gets 50. That's 222% stronger, and it only becomes more extreme.

More simply, Preserve Life is something that a Cleric is going to want to use all 20 levels, while Second Wind is something that's only going to be relevant in those first few levels.

What I'll probably end up doing is have Second Wind heal based on max hp of the fighter rather than the level. So at 100 hp, make it d10+25.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
One thing I'm not liking is how different Preserve Life is from Second Wind.

Second Wind heals 1d10+Level and takes a Bonus (minor) Action, but can only target the fighter.
Philosophical difference in system preference: Fighters aren't healers and so shouldn't be able to heal themselves anyway. If I end up running 5e this one goes out the window.

Preserve Life heals 5*Level and takes an Action, can only heal characters up to half their hp, but can spread the healing out in precise numbers among multiple allies.
Clerics are healers, so the idea here is fine; but it shouldn't be so precise. Maybe a flat 5+level points to 2+level targets?

Lanefan
 

Mistwell

Hero
One thing I'm not liking is how different Preserve Life is from Second Wind.

Second Wind heals 1d10+Level and takes a Bonus (minor) Action, but can only target the fighter.

Preserve Life heals 5*Level and takes an Action, can only heal characters up to half their hp, but can spread the healing out in precise numbers among multiple allies.

At level 2, Fighter gets 1d10+2, averaging to 7.5. Cleric gets 10. So from the start it's already outstripped, with the cleric version being 33% stronger.

At level 10, Fighter gets 1d10+10, average of 15.5, while the cleric gets 50. That's 222% stronger, and it only becomes more extreme.

More simply, Preserve Life is something that a Cleric is going to want to use all 20 levels, while Second Wind is something that's only going to be relevant in those first few levels.
This is a feature, not a bug.

It's a Cleric specializing in healing - that's their thing. Why on earth would an ordinary Fighter have an ability to heal himself anywhere near as good as a Cleric specialized in healing?
 

Capricia

Villager
I've no problem with the Cleric healing better the Fighter. Getting 33% more juice, spreading it out, and being able to deliver precise numbers are all big advantages over Second Wind that show that it really is the Cleric's specialty.

It's that the gap between the two grows the higher in level you go that I have a problem with. Abilities should scale properly with level, not become mostly obsolete as hp skyrockets.
 

DDNFan

Villager
It's that the gap between the two grows the higher in level you go that I have a problem with. Abilities should scale properly with level, not become mostly obsolete as hp skyrockets.
As much as I detest Second Wind as it currently stands (unless with the vitality and wounds module it restores vitality like one would assume given rational designers), I agree with you. Abilities should remain pertinent through the levels otherwise the game time they take up becomes more of a burden and less of a benefit to the game as a whole. If I were designing Second Wind, I would let it restore all vitality points as a reaction to them going to 0. I want fighters to have nice, yet plausible things. Making it involuntary (why would it be?) by making it a reaction removes the ability to spam it in rests, and restoring all vitality in one shot removes the desire to. Win Win.

Anyone notice anything else? Dwarves have 25 speed. I looked this up here on this sheet after checking the magic item exerpt with the boots of striding, it wouldn't make sense as an item if it didn't benefit anyone.

It's a good day for D&D.
 
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Falling Icicle

Villager
I've no problem with the Cleric healing better the Fighter. Getting 33% more juice, spreading it out, and being able to deliver precise numbers are all big advantages over Second Wind that show that it really is the Cleric's specialty.

It's that the gap between the two grows the higher in level you go that I have a problem with. Abilities should scale properly with level, not become mostly obsolete as hp skyrockets.
The fighter also has a big advantage in that his second wind is a bonus action, while the cleric has to spend his action to use his healing. I also wouldn't say that the fighter's second wind becomes mostly obsolete later. At 20th level, that's 1d10 + 20 (avg. 26) hp, which is still a pretty nice ability. It may not be as big of a percentage of your hit points as it was at level 1, but the same is true of damage and other sources of healing, like cure spells. Those don't scale at the same rate hps do either. For example, a 20th level fighter has 4 attacks, and thus does 4x as much as a 1st level fighter, but has 20x the hit points. A 1st level magic missile (3d4 + 3, avg. 10.5) can easily one-shot a low level creature or character, but a 9th level magic missile (11d4 + 11, avg. 38.5) is probably only going to inflict around 1/5th of a high level monster's hp.

We also don't know if fighters will get additional uses of second wind per encounter or if the ability scales in some other way. All we know is what it does from levels 1-5.
 

Mistwell

Hero
It's that the gap between the two grows the higher in level you go that I have a problem with. Abilities should scale properly with level, not become mostly obsolete as hp skyrockets.
Lots of things are not as useful at higher levels. There is nothing wrong with that. Things don't have to scale with level.
 

DDNFan

Villager
The fighter also has a big advantage in that his second wind is a bonus action, while the cleric has to spend his action to use his healing. I also wouldn't say that the fighter's second wind becomes mostly obsolete later. At 20th level, that's 1d10 + 20 (avg. 26) hp, which is still a pretty nice ability. It may not be as big of a percentage of your hit points as it was at level 1, but the same is true of damage and other sources of healing, like cure spells. Those don't scale at the same rate hps do either. For example, a 20th level fighter has 4 attacks, and thus does 4x as much as a 1st level fighter, but has 20x the hit points. A 1st level magic missile (3d4 + 3, avg. 10.5) can easily one-shot a low level creature or character, but a 9th level magic missile (11d4 + 11, avg. 38.5) is probably only going to inflict around 1/5th of a high level monster's hp.

We also don't know if fighters will get additional uses of second wind per encounter or if the ability scales in some other way. All we know is what it does from levels 1-5.
Bonus action is rapidly turning into 5th's minor action but with a different name and only for attacks, and heals. Maybe other stuff too? Might as well have just called it minor action. Many classes will be trying to make sure they get at least one bonus action per round / turn, where before they had no reason to. I know my group loves how quick combat goes, minor actions slowed things down in 4th ed and I'm not too pleased they are back now.

Not sure why they made Second Wind activateable at will. Are fighters gurus with intimate, minute control of their internal body functions? They could have removed the voluntary aspect of it and the need for people to even ask what is a bonus action and how do I use one?
 

drjones

Villager
If I were designing Second Wind, I would let it restore all vitality points as a reaction to them going to 0. I want fighters to have nice, yet plausible things. Making it involuntary (why would it be?) by making it a reaction removes the ability to spam it in rests, and restoring all vitality in one shot removes the desire to. Win Win.
Spamming second wind is not a real problem, if the DM is allowing the party to rest for hours at a time after each fight without issue then they are doing it wrong.
 

E. Tallitnics

Villager
Bonus action is rapidly turning into 5th's minor action but with a different name and only for attacks, and heals. Maybe other stuff too? Might as well have just called it minor action. Many classes will be trying to make sure they get at least one bonus action per round / turn, where before they had no reason to. I know my group loves how quick combat goes, minor actions slowed things down in 4th ed and I'm not too pleased they are back now.

Not sure why they made Second Wind activateable at will. Are fighters gurus with intimate, minute control of their internal body functions? They could have removed the voluntary aspect of it and the need for people to even ask what is a bonus action and how do I use one?
Bonus Action is a much needed addition to the game! There are too many things that grant an extra form of attack and no mechanic to limit how many a player could use during their turn. Now there is.
 

Falling Icicle

Villager
Bonus action is rapidly turning into 5th's minor action but with a different name and only for attacks, and heals. Maybe other stuff too? Might as well have just called it minor action. Many classes will be trying to make sure they get at least one bonus action per round / turn, where before they had no reason to. I know my group loves how quick combat goes, minor actions slowed things down in 4th ed and I'm not too pleased they are back now.
I believe you don't get a bonus action on your turn unless you have some special ability that uses one. So no decision paralysis. You either have some effect that gives you a bonus action on your turn, like haste or second wind, or you don't have one at all. At least, that's how I understand it. I could be wrong.

Not sure why they made Second Wind activateable at will. Are fighters gurus with intimate, minute control of their internal body functions? They could have removed the voluntary aspect of it and the need for people to even ask what is a bonus action and how do I use one?
It's not at will. Once you use it you can't use it again until after you rest.
 

DDNFan

Villager
It's not at will. Once you use it you can't use it again until after you rest.
I said activatable at will, not useable each round. The fact that a fighter can choose when his or her body restores its vitality (assuming using vitality module), or stamina, assumes that running out of stamina is even possible, without dying. I believe humans drop unconscious before they die of over-exertion. But my point is, why didn't they just make it a reaction to extreme duress. At least this way the DM could keep it in check without resorting to telling that PC not to use their own ability instead of Hit Dice.

It's bad design. SW should have re-used the hit dice mechanic, and then it would elegantly and instantly have been compatible with HD-as-vitality-restoration without any further mucking around.

It's funny that the barbarian actually gets an ability to spark up some rage juice into HP when they become enraged. Right now I see lots of thematic overlapping between fighters and barbarians without any real reason why they have different mechanical underpinnings. (# rages per day, rages allow HD expenditure in some cases, while also granting Temp HP).

When the vitality module is enabled, will Barbarian rage increase vitality? If not, why not? If so, why have a separate HD restoration mechanic, since it will restore vitality instead of healing wounds.

This is the problem with bundling stamina in HP, it makes modules that ostensibly are there to support other playstyles, to expose the underlying structural flaws of merging wounds and stamina into one number in the first place, then giving HP restoration abilities to all kinds of characters whether it makes sense or not.
 

Falling Icicle

Villager
I said activatable at will, not useable each round. The fact that a fighter can choose when his or her body restores its vitality (assuming using vitality module), or stamina, assumes that running out of stamina is even possible, without dying. I believe humans drop unconscious before they die of over-exertion. But my point is, why didn't they just make it a reaction to extreme duress. At least this way the DM could keep it in check without resorting to telling that PC not to use their own ability instead of Hit Dice.

It's bad design. SW should have re-used the hit dice mechanic, and then it would elegantly and instantly have been compatible with HD-as-vitality-restoration without any further mucking around.

It's funny that the barbarian actually gets an ability to spark up some rage juice into HP when they become enraged. Right now I see lots of thematic overlapping between fighters and barbarians without any real reason why they have different mechanical underpinnings. (# rages per day, rages allow HD expenditure in some cases, while also granting Temp HP).

When the vitality module is enabled, will Barbarian rage increase vitality? If not, why not? If so, why have a separate HD restoration mechanic, since it will restore vitality instead of healing wounds.

This is the problem with bundling stamina in HP, it makes modules that ostensibly are there to support other playstyles, to expose the underlying structural flaws of merging wounds and stamina into one number in the first place, then giving HP restoration abilities to all kinds of characters whether it makes sense or not.
I don't agree with you that it's bad design. From a purely game design point of view, I think second wind is well thought out. It only takes a bonus action, so it doesn't interrupt a fighter's ability to do what people want to do when playing a fighter - fight. It also reduces the burden on the party healer, allowing them to spend more of their resources on things that they want to do, rather than having to spend so much time keeping the fighter up. IMO it makes the game more fun for both the fighter and the party healer, and that's a good thing.

Hit points themselves are a very unrealistic abstraction. The way D&D has handled injuries has always been far from realistic. It makes no sense at all for someone to be able to be hacked multiple times with an axe, fall off a cliff, or be dunked in lava and survive, and yet these things can easily be survived by a high level D&D character. But this is one thing where Gygax decided that realism should give way to playability. Hit points may not make a lot of sense from a simulation point of view, but from a game design point of view, they make a lot of sense. They make combat quick and easy, and keep the game flowing without the characters having to be hospitalized after every battle, allowing them to keep adventuring. Second wind, likewise, is about the same things. It may grate simulationist sensibilities, but D&D has never been a simulationist game. That's all I really want to say about that matter here. I don't think people would like for us to derail this thread with another long argument over hit points and martial healing.

As for hit dice, I agree with their decision not to use them to fuel second wind. As Mike Mearls explained in the video where they unwrapped the starter set, Second Wind isn't as easy to abuse as it might seem. When you're spending an hour to take a short rest, you're better off using your hit dice to heal yourself and to save your second wind for emergencies later. Sure, you can let the fighter rest for hour after hour, but if you're going to do that, you might as well just take a long rest and recover fully anyway. That, and DMs can easily counter such behavior with wandering monsters, time constraints, etc.
 

Agamon

Adventurer
I see SW as stopping, catching your breath, focusing and assessing the situation, and digging down deep for that extra something that will get you and your party through the fight. Call it an adrenaline rush, perhaps.

Might have been better represented with temp hp, but replacement of lost hp makes for less bookkeeping, so it's acceptable. And if you think of it this way, it's easy to rule that the player can't spam it or even really use it outside of combat, while still allowing them to choose when it gets used.
 

LFK

Villager
Bonus action is rapidly turning into 5th's minor action but with a different name and only for attacks, and heals. Maybe other stuff too? Might as well have just called it minor action. Many classes will be trying to make sure they get at least one bonus action per round / turn, where before they had no reason to. I know my group loves how quick combat goes, minor actions slowed things down in 4th ed and I'm not too pleased they are back now.
It also includes 4e's Immediate and Opportunity actions.
Not sure why they made Second Wind activateable at will.
So the class can do its job.
 

The Hitcher

Villager
Bad design in this context is when something isn't fun at the table. Everything else is academic. Mearls explained that the way Second Wind works now was most fun for the playtesters. Until you actually play with the rule, you don't have a counterexample to that evidence. Deal.
 

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