I remember playing AD&D 2e and we just scribbled on a piece of paper, it did work, although it could be a bit confusing at times. I really wonder if I can go back to playing more like that again. I think it will be pretty hard, since it's pretty ingrained to use the grid and count squares.
D&D 5E Starter Set Contents Teaser
I remember playing AD&D 2e and we just scribbled on a piece of paper, it did work, although it could be a bit confusing at times. I really wonder if I can go back to playing more like that again. I think it will be pretty hard, since it's pretty ingrained to use the grid and count squares.
MartyW
Explorer
I don't understand this statement. The PF Beginner Box Set is aimed at new RPG players. The D&D Starter Set is aimed at new RPG players. It's a valid to compare the two, from content to price point. The audience is the same.
No, here I can definitely say you are 100% incorrect. The PF Beginner Box Set is NOT aimed at existing players. It is aimed at newbie RP gamers. It is very much and introductory walk-through of role playing games in general and Pathfinder in specific. It is not geared to an audience already familiar with RPGs and Pathfinder. Not at all.
When you are looking at comparable products for the D&D Starter Set, these are the competition:
Pathfinder Beginner Box Set
Star Wars: Age of Rebellion Beginner Game
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game
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Agamon
Adventurer
The difference between the two is that while it's possible (and I use that in the strictest sense of the word) to play PF without minis and a map, it's also possible to hitchhike naked. I don't recommend either.
5e, on the other hand, has a "go with what you're comfortable with" mentality towards minis. Seeing as they are unnecessary, why not exclude that material to get a better price point?
I agree that the starter set and the PF beginner's box are for new players, but the games they are leading into are very different in terms of grids and minis. PF is designed to play with grids and minis, and 5e will only have grids and minis as an option and not baked into the core game.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
My experience is that new-to-RPGs players cope with minis + map better than they do TotM, if we're thinking about "easier for beginners".
Agamon
Adventurer
That could certainly be true, but there's also the idea that including these things in a set aimed at beginners will cause them to think they are necessary to play.
Personally, I can see a good argument for those pieces both being included and not included, and I wouldn't blame WotC for going either route.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Indeed, and as I started D&D with TotM, I was always very annoyed with starter sets that included minis or mini-like things, because I felt that they were really "sending the wrong message" to new players. It's just been my experience since that people cottoned on to what was going on a lot quicker with them, and were more prone to getting involved, rather that staying back. But I still kind of feel TotM leads to a more role-play-y mindset as an introduction, so maybe it's good.
Except that Mearls has said that tactical combat won't be in the Basic rules, and that it will be in the Dungeon Master's Guide, which is an optional book. If the Starter Set is supposed to be a bridge product to get people to play the Basic game, and to buy adventures and play them only with the Basic game without the "advanced" books, then putting things in the Starter Set to support tactical combat only confuses your potential future players. Why does the Starter Set they bought have all of this superfluous fluff in it when the rules they downloaded don't use it and the Tyranny of Dragons adventure that they bought doesn't use it either? Or worse - why does the Starter Set have all this cool poster map and token stuff but the Tyranny of Dragons adventure doesn't? At best it comes off as garbled and confusing - at worst it could come off as bait-and-switch ("Wow this game is pretty neat - let me lay down $35 for this adventure to play with it. Hey - why is this adventure missing all of the fiddly bits that make the game so fun?").
There is a difference between "all styles are supported" and "the style that we expect beginners to use is X". The Starter Set falls into the latter category. Based only on what's been said about them so far the Basic set likely falls somewhere in between and the advanced books are there to make sure that the former is completely covered.
Agamon
Adventurer
Wow. This stuff is impressive. Koodos to the art director and artists.
