D&D 5E Starter Set Contents Teaser

[mechascorpio]

if you were putting minis on a map to show your location then it was not truly TotM IMO.

Of course, back then, I don't even think the phrase TotM existed!

But as someone who just loves minis, tokens, battlemats and so on, I'm pleased they made the decision to not include these, and stick with the lower price point. The focus on what is in the books will be on an introduction to roleplaying and I think that, coming from the giant of D&D, that's what the hobby needs most. Not that the tchotchkes somehow stand in the way of roleplaying (they might for you, they don't for me), but it's more of a "next, optional step" IMO. Pages spent outlining the use of tokens and positioning and so on are better left (in this product) to good advice on roleplaying, being a good player, being a good DM.

I get the "wow" factor, I really do. I don't like 3.5 or Pathfinder, and I still bought that Beginner's Box. At the same time, I didn't miss the "wow" factor when I first bought my Holmes box and those that came after it. The "wow" was in the dice, in the words, in the art.

 

[Mistwell]

Not entirely true. The Basic Set does not come with an adventure. The Starter Set does.

I didn't say it did come with an adventure. All I said is the Basic set is aimed at experienced RPGers while the Start set is not. What's not entirely true about that?

Let's say I'm a 4e player who has never played earlier editions. Not only am I interested in the rules, but I may want to have an introductory adventure as well. I may have run primarily pre-fab content from WotC in the past and I want to know what to expect out of the new system... or maybe I'm a 3e player that want to try 5e with a low introductory price. I'm looking for rules and an intro adventure.

I never said you couldn't order it as an experienced RPGer (I ordered it, with the intent to give it as a gift to a newbie), I said it's not aimed at you. And it's not. That's not the stated intent behind this set.

Heck -- look at the back of the Stater Set box:
enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61776&d=1400773985

What do you see in the corner? Gridded combat map. If WotC is really trying to sell "Theater of the Mind", why are they putting a grid map on the box art? Or... why not put in a poster map with no grid? How much are you willing to bet that those gridded map bits come directly from the adventure book? (I'd bet on it.) This is where the TotM argument falls down.

It's a map for the DM. The entire Starter set is aimed at the DM, not the players. That's the difference. And I explained earlier why going gridless is better for the Starter set, as otherwise it fails to emphasize the difference between an RPG and a board game. In my opinion, it's not that they couldn't include a map and tokens for use with players, it's that including them degrades the impression they're trying to make with the Starter set aimed at new players - that an RPG is distinct from a board game. Once people know what an RPG really is, then they can choose to use maps and miniatures or not. But I think the initial impression for a boxed set like this works best without them.

We're going to disagree, so we can probably stop beating the dead horse. I just think that if WotC doesn't look more closely at the beginner box presentation of their competition (i.e. - Paizo, FFG, etc), the competition will continue eating their lunch.

I don't know why this isn't sticking, but IT'S NOT A BEGINNER BOX SET. It's not intended to compete with the Paizo beginner boxed set, because it's not a beginner boxed set. The Starter Set is aimed at new RPG players, not existing players. The Basic game is aimed at existing players, and THAT is what competes with the Paizo Beginner boxed set. And at the high price of "free" I think it will do that just fine, particularly given the vast number of posts I've seen from Pathfinder fans who said, "Well, at free, I will at least check it out".

 

[Mistwell]

You weren't there, so you don't really don't have a basis of opinion on what we were playing.

Theater of the Mind does not preclude the use of graph paper map sketches and lead minis (yes, they were LEAD back in my day). Theater of the Mind means that you describe your actions and movement thought the use of words, not by counting squares and moving your pawn. We didn't do map-based actions/movement. AD&D groups back then would just place our lead avatars on the table with descriptions like "Well, you are over here [marks on the paper] and Fy-Tor is about 20 feet away over here... and the monster [places lego mini-fig] is standing about here near this stalagmite... [draws on paper]..."

The minis and drawings were to provide illustrative clarity, not tactical play.

We did it like you are describing as well. In fact I recall the first time I actually saw a grid, and I thought it was a wargame, and it looked like too much work compared to how we just used an undefined space on a table and moved stuff around just to represent vague positioning. It was not until 3e that I finally used a grid and found reasons to like it.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, I was around back then.

if you were putting minis on a map...

He just said they were not on a map. It's just minis on a table. He said he would put a pencil mark on a map (likely the map the mapper player was drawing). That's how we did it back then, and most groups I saw did it back then.

We bought minis, they looked cool, we used them to sometimes show vague things like "bad guys are that way, we're sort of this way", but it was not to measure any kind of movement or real distance. That's still theater of the mind (a term I hate by the way....I prefer "gridless").

 

[fjw70]

He just said they were not on a map. It's just minis on a table. He said he would put a pencil mark on a map (likely the map the mapper player was drawing). That's how we did it back then, and most groups I saw did it back then.

We bought minis, they looked cool, we used them to sometimes show vague things like "bad guys are that way, we're sort of this way", but it was not to measure any kind of movement or real distance. That's still theater of the mind (a term I hate by the way....I prefer "gridless").

You don't need a grid to lose TotM. If your minis are showing relative positions of everyone then that is not TotM. If your minis are just sitting on the table and you aren't moving them around then that style is irrelevant to the discussion.

The poster said he wanted tokens and a poster map. If he doesn't want to put the tokens on the map then why have tokens.

 

[Mistwell]

You don't need a grid to lose TotM. If your minis are showing relative positions of everyone then that is not TotM. If your minis are just sitting on the table and you aren't moving them around then that style is irrelevant to the discussion.

He was not moving them around, but they were showing which side of the room different things were on, on occasion.

Your definition of theater of the mind is not universal. And, in my opinion, it's a horrible name for that style of play.

Even in the Mearls videos of them playing "theater of the mind" they would sometimes grab a couple objects to show vaguely where things were at. There is no strict bright line that says "if you touch an object to show any kind of positions at all, it doesn't count as theater of the mind".

 

[fjw70]

He was not moving them around, but they were showing which side of the room different things were on, on occasion.

Your definition of theater of the mind is not universal. And, in my opinion, it's a horrible name for that style of play.

He was comparing tokens to how he used minis back then. I really doubt he is going to use a token without moving them around.

 

[SkidAce]

You know it's about to get intense when [MENTION=82759]WotC_Trevor[/MENTION] shows up on ENWorld.

I suspect they lurk a lot.

I would in their shoes.

 

[SkidAce]

You weren't there, so you don't really don't have a basis of opinion on what we were playing.

Theater of the Mind does not preclude the use of graph paper map sketches and lead minis (yes, they were LEAD back in my day). Theater of the Mind means that you describe your actions and movement thought the use of words, not by counting squares and moving your pawn. We didn't do map-based actions/movement. AD&D groups back then would just place our lead avatars on the table with descriptions like "Well, you are over here [marks on the paper] and Fy-Tor is about 20 feet away over here... and the monster [places lego mini-fig] is standing about here near this stalagmite... [draws on paper]..."

The minis and drawings were to provide illustrative clarity, not tactical play.

I agree with [MENTION=6776795]MartyW[/MENTION].

 

[Marius Delphus]

Yay, we got our first look at the new layout and fonts.

To me, it's kinda interesting.

To me, too. I'm still expecting to be impressed.