Starting a Gestalt Campaign.
- Thread starter King-Panda
- Start date
King-Panda
First Post
Alright, his choice I guess, thanks.
master arminas
First Post
Some good gestalt combo's that I have found:
Swashbuckler//Warmage. Both use Int for adding to damage. Swashbuckler only gets light armor, so no problems there. Fighter BAB, d10 hit die, good Fort/Will, medium Ref (because of Swashbuckler). Excellent combo for the a light agile fighter with a heavy magical punch. Lacks utility magic, but great for damage.
Swashbuckler//Beguiler. Even better than the above. This combination gets you utility spells, charms, dominations, and illusions, as well as 6 skill points and trapfinding. Cloaked Casting works great with the Swashbuckler.
Swashbuckler//Bard. Great combination. Just about as good as the Swash/Beguil above as far as spells go, but add bardic music to the combo.
Fighter//Monk. All of the monk abilities--with a full BAB, d10 hit die, and eleven additional bonus feats!?! The unarmed combat specialist supreme.
Fighter/Cavalier//Paladin. The ultimate mounted warrior!
Knight//Dragon Shaman. An unusual combination that works. Charisma provides the heavy lifting here, adding to the Knight's Challenge, as well as the lay-on-hands like ability of the Dragon Shaman. Good support for a party.
Fighter//Soulknife. I know what you are thinking--soulknife?!? WTF? Combining in gestalt with a fighter solves all of the problems of the class, however. Full BAB, bonus feats, and the ability to actually use your mind blade. And it saves you gold.
Paladin//Psion. A bit MAD here, but bear with me. Psionics are not affected by ASF. So, you have a heavy armor paladin, mounted on his special mount, and up to 9th level powers to boot! Select the right discipline, and you have a powerful character.
Psion//Psychic Warrior. Sounds nuts, but remember one basic rule of psionics: power points acquired from any classes are pooled into one power point pool. You gain all the powers, power points, and feat from Psion on one side, and then all the powers, power points, and feat from Psychic Warrior on the other--just as you would gain the spells known, spells per day, and feats of a Wizard//Sorcerer. However, at the end of the process, you combine both power point totals together into one massive pool. A bit cheesy, but incredibly powerful so long as the pp lasts.
Duskblade//Rogue. The last one I will do today. Sick, powerful, and uber. Full BAB, d8 hit die, all good saves, spell-casting in combat, sneak attack, evasion, and 8 skill points per level! Sure, the spells are not the best, but you can combine them with melee attacks. Two feats for the this combo: Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar. Your familiar can flank, giving you sneak attack on nearly every attack, plus damage from arcane channelling or quickcast. You familiar has your BAB, base saves, and one-half your total hit points, making it very tough as well. It also shares all your skills (with the skill list of a ROGUE, remember?).
Arminas tar Valantil
Grand Master of the Ebon Rose
Swashbuckler//Warmage. Both use Int for adding to damage. Swashbuckler only gets light armor, so no problems there. Fighter BAB, d10 hit die, good Fort/Will, medium Ref (because of Swashbuckler). Excellent combo for the a light agile fighter with a heavy magical punch. Lacks utility magic, but great for damage.
Swashbuckler//Beguiler. Even better than the above. This combination gets you utility spells, charms, dominations, and illusions, as well as 6 skill points and trapfinding. Cloaked Casting works great with the Swashbuckler.
Swashbuckler//Bard. Great combination. Just about as good as the Swash/Beguil above as far as spells go, but add bardic music to the combo.
Fighter//Monk. All of the monk abilities--with a full BAB, d10 hit die, and eleven additional bonus feats!?! The unarmed combat specialist supreme.
Fighter/Cavalier//Paladin. The ultimate mounted warrior!
Knight//Dragon Shaman. An unusual combination that works. Charisma provides the heavy lifting here, adding to the Knight's Challenge, as well as the lay-on-hands like ability of the Dragon Shaman. Good support for a party.
Fighter//Soulknife. I know what you are thinking--soulknife?!? WTF? Combining in gestalt with a fighter solves all of the problems of the class, however. Full BAB, bonus feats, and the ability to actually use your mind blade. And it saves you gold.
Paladin//Psion. A bit MAD here, but bear with me. Psionics are not affected by ASF. So, you have a heavy armor paladin, mounted on his special mount, and up to 9th level powers to boot! Select the right discipline, and you have a powerful character.
Psion//Psychic Warrior. Sounds nuts, but remember one basic rule of psionics: power points acquired from any classes are pooled into one power point pool. You gain all the powers, power points, and feat from Psion on one side, and then all the powers, power points, and feat from Psychic Warrior on the other--just as you would gain the spells known, spells per day, and feats of a Wizard//Sorcerer. However, at the end of the process, you combine both power point totals together into one massive pool. A bit cheesy, but incredibly powerful so long as the pp lasts.
Duskblade//Rogue. The last one I will do today. Sick, powerful, and uber. Full BAB, d8 hit die, all good saves, spell-casting in combat, sneak attack, evasion, and 8 skill points per level! Sure, the spells are not the best, but you can combine them with melee attacks. Two feats for the this combo: Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar. Your familiar can flank, giving you sneak attack on nearly every attack, plus damage from arcane channelling or quickcast. You familiar has your BAB, base saves, and one-half your total hit points, making it very tough as well. It also shares all your skills (with the skill list of a ROGUE, remember?).
Arminas tar Valantil
Grand Master of the Ebon Rose
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King-Panda
First Post
Those are some pretty cool combos. I'll make sure to show them to my players.
I don't usually allow psionics in my campaign, 1) because my own personal experience has seen them as overpowered, and 2) I don't have the time or energy to add psionic NPCs, psionic monsters, psionic items, and psionic dungeons to my campaign. I already do enough as it is, making the rest up by myself.
If anyone wants to know, this is how the players are shaping up for the campaign:
It's an evil campaign, btw:
A LE Drow Warlock/Wizard specializing in Necromancy.
A NE Githzerai Monk/Druid Specializing in Wildshape melee combat.
A NE/CE Half-Ogre (or a lycanthrope) Barb/Druid specializing in self-buffing melee.
A ?? Skulk Spellthief/Rogue specializing in... rogue-ery?
One Undecided, probably a Cleric/something. Most likely going to be the Tank.
I don't usually allow psionics in my campaign, 1) because my own personal experience has seen them as overpowered, and 2) I don't have the time or energy to add psionic NPCs, psionic monsters, psionic items, and psionic dungeons to my campaign. I already do enough as it is, making the rest up by myself.
If anyone wants to know, this is how the players are shaping up for the campaign:
It's an evil campaign, btw:
A LE Drow Warlock/Wizard specializing in Necromancy.
A NE Githzerai Monk/Druid Specializing in Wildshape melee combat.
A NE/CE Half-Ogre (or a lycanthrope) Barb/Druid specializing in self-buffing melee.
A ?? Skulk Spellthief/Rogue specializing in... rogue-ery?
One Undecided, probably a Cleric/something. Most likely going to be the Tank.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Here's the rough guide to Gestalt: a PC should be able to get all good saves, get at least d8 HP, and get two sets of abilities: one active / offensive (like spells), and one passive / defensive (like Divine Grace or Evasion). You should also be able to get a load of skill points.
Here are some more optimal combos:
Wizard // Ranger (archery path) -- Skill points, hit points, all good saves, Evasion at 9th level, full BAB, and something to do when your spells run out or when you run across a magic-immune foe. Favored Enemy bonus damage works on weapon-like spells, and full BAB + free Improved Precise Shot means you do not miss with your Ray spells.
Psion // Warblade (from Tome of Battle) -- The ultimate brains-over-brawn melee machine. Your bonus Psionic feats make you hit faster and harder than a Warblade otherwise could, and that's pretty darn hard already. Also, you're a full manifester. Int bonus goes to damage, "spell" DCs, Reflex save, and a pile of other things -- you're tactically flexible, but you only depend on Dex, Con and Int.
Wilder // Paladin -- Yes, Wilders can be Lawful Good! What's the big deal here? Charisma to saves and Touch AC, Charisma to "spell" DCs, and you can "cast" in fullplate. This is your armored artillery platform.
Druid // Rogue -- Pounce + Sneak Attack = win. All good saves, Evasion, great skill points. Sure, take one level of Monk if you really want Wisdom to AC before you can afford a Monks Belt, but no more. Unarmed strike does nothing for you, and Rogue // Druid already gives all good saves.
Cleric // ... anything -- Clerics own, but you need to pick what kind of cleric you want to be. Evil clerics aren't as easy to play, since they suck at healing. Fighter // Cleric would be nice for someone who wants to play a feat-intensive Fighter build; the strength of the Cleric side will compensate for the weakness of the Fighter side.
Bard // Barbarian -- All good saves, great selection of class skills (though not all that many skill points since Int is a dump stat), Inspire Courage song works fine with Rage (but many other songs don't); good mix of active and passive abilities. Archery is a surprisingly good choice, since Inspire Courage damage compounds quickly when you get a lot of attacks. Unlike other archers, though, you're not a squishy little dude afraid of melee.
Barbarian // Dragon Shaman -- Rage increases your breath weapon DC by at least +2.
With your BAB, HP, weapon selection and aura, you fit well in the center of melee.
Bard // Warblade -- Pump Dex, Int and Cha; have a decent Con and Str; don't worry about Wisdom. Focus on Diamond Mind and White Raven schools. Buy a Ring of Evasion and you are a dervish of dancing death. Again, all good saves.
Beguiler // Warblade -- Int synergy.
Swordsage // Cloistered Cleric -- Very strong, excellent Wisdom synergy, good mix of daily and per-encounter powers.
Cheers, -- N
Here are some more optimal combos:
Wizard // Ranger (archery path) -- Skill points, hit points, all good saves, Evasion at 9th level, full BAB, and something to do when your spells run out or when you run across a magic-immune foe. Favored Enemy bonus damage works on weapon-like spells, and full BAB + free Improved Precise Shot means you do not miss with your Ray spells.
Psion // Warblade (from Tome of Battle) -- The ultimate brains-over-brawn melee machine. Your bonus Psionic feats make you hit faster and harder than a Warblade otherwise could, and that's pretty darn hard already. Also, you're a full manifester. Int bonus goes to damage, "spell" DCs, Reflex save, and a pile of other things -- you're tactically flexible, but you only depend on Dex, Con and Int.
Wilder // Paladin -- Yes, Wilders can be Lawful Good! What's the big deal here? Charisma to saves and Touch AC, Charisma to "spell" DCs, and you can "cast" in fullplate. This is your armored artillery platform.
Druid // Rogue -- Pounce + Sneak Attack = win. All good saves, Evasion, great skill points. Sure, take one level of Monk if you really want Wisdom to AC before you can afford a Monks Belt, but no more. Unarmed strike does nothing for you, and Rogue // Druid already gives all good saves.
Cleric // ... anything -- Clerics own, but you need to pick what kind of cleric you want to be. Evil clerics aren't as easy to play, since they suck at healing. Fighter // Cleric would be nice for someone who wants to play a feat-intensive Fighter build; the strength of the Cleric side will compensate for the weakness of the Fighter side.
Bard // Barbarian -- All good saves, great selection of class skills (though not all that many skill points since Int is a dump stat), Inspire Courage song works fine with Rage (but many other songs don't); good mix of active and passive abilities. Archery is a surprisingly good choice, since Inspire Courage damage compounds quickly when you get a lot of attacks. Unlike other archers, though, you're not a squishy little dude afraid of melee.
Barbarian // Dragon Shaman -- Rage increases your breath weapon DC by at least +2.
With your BAB, HP, weapon selection and aura, you fit well in the center of melee.Bard // Warblade -- Pump Dex, Int and Cha; have a decent Con and Str; don't worry about Wisdom. Focus on Diamond Mind and White Raven schools. Buy a Ring of Evasion and you are a dervish of dancing death. Again, all good saves.
Beguiler // Warblade -- Int synergy.
Swordsage // Cloistered Cleric -- Very strong, excellent Wisdom synergy, good mix of daily and per-encounter powers.
Cheers, -- N
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
Scout gestalts very nicely with many other classes.
-blarg
-blarg
Jack Simth
First Post
A couple of tips for your players...
1) Avoid MAD like the plague it is. Multiple Attribute Dependency is a character killer. Sure, that Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper, but you've got two primary casting stats to focus on. Now, if you put one side to stuff where saves don't matter (e.g., Cleric side is used for buffing, healing, and utility spells only) you can skip most the MAD... but you're still going to have some issues with it. There's some feats out there that help with this, but you only get so many such feats.
2) Look for active/passive combos. You still only get so many actions per round. In general, you'll want one side to be "active" with good stuff you can do, and the other side to be "passive" with abilities that take no action - defenses, generally. Monk makes a very good choice for the "passive" side for anyone who can't really use armor (replace with Swordsage if you can't take a Lawful alignment for some reason, but the Monk will generally be the superior defensive package long-term), as does Barbarian or Paladin (but in an Evil campaign, the only Paladins you need to worry about are Blackguards or the variant Paladins).
3) Avoid combos that neutralize each other's benefits. That Fighter//Sorcerer can't wear the good armors due to the Arcane Spell Failure - which essentially means that you lose some of the benefit of the Fighter class. Alternately, that Fighter//Sorcerer can't make effective use of all the spells available due to arcane spell failure, neutralizing some of the benefit of the Sorcerer class. You want to avoid those choices.
4) Look for combos that supplement each other. The Monk, out of the box, has a bad case of MAD - it needs Strength for melee attacks and damage, Dexterity for AC, Constitution for HP, Wisdom for AC and class features, and some Intelligence for the skill points. The Druid's Wildshape class feature supplies a Strength and Dexterity score independent of the character's base values - which means the Monk//Druid can now drop Strength and Dexterity, leaving just Con, Wis, and a small amount of Int as being the needed stats.
5) Avoid combos with a lot of overlap. Sure, the Wizard//Sorcerer looks good on paper as the Ultimate Arcanist, but aside from the MAD, both have one good save (the same one - Will), d4 HD, 1/2 BAB, 2+Int skill points per level, and they draw from the same spell list. Likewise, the Fighter//Barbarian looks good as the ultimate melee machine (using Core classes, anyway), but again, they've got a lot of overlap - there's only a one-step difference between their hit dice, they both have the same good save (Fort), and they've both got the same BAB (full). You can do a lot better.
6) Pick one party role. You don't want to get too spread out. You've still only got so much resources for equipment, and you've still only got so many feats. Pick a role in the party, and focus on that. Other stuff is a bonus. The Paladin//sorcerer uses spells to back up melee. The Sorcerer//paladin uses Full BAB, d10 HD, and Divine Grace to back up touch-attack spellcasting while taking hits and avoiding spells. They're the same class combination (Sorcerer//Paladin) but they're completely different characters - one is a Meatshield, the other a Sparkcaster.
7) Be aware of power curves. A Barbarian is pretty much the king of the castle at 1st, where the Wizard is always the first to die. The Wizard is pretty much the king of the castle at 20th, and the Barbarian is his baggage handler. You want class combos where, at any given level, you'll have something useful to do.
1) Avoid MAD like the plague it is. Multiple Attribute Dependency is a character killer. Sure, that Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper, but you've got two primary casting stats to focus on. Now, if you put one side to stuff where saves don't matter (e.g., Cleric side is used for buffing, healing, and utility spells only) you can skip most the MAD... but you're still going to have some issues with it. There's some feats out there that help with this, but you only get so many such feats.
2) Look for active/passive combos. You still only get so many actions per round. In general, you'll want one side to be "active" with good stuff you can do, and the other side to be "passive" with abilities that take no action - defenses, generally. Monk makes a very good choice for the "passive" side for anyone who can't really use armor (replace with Swordsage if you can't take a Lawful alignment for some reason, but the Monk will generally be the superior defensive package long-term), as does Barbarian or Paladin (but in an Evil campaign, the only Paladins you need to worry about are Blackguards or the variant Paladins).
3) Avoid combos that neutralize each other's benefits. That Fighter//Sorcerer can't wear the good armors due to the Arcane Spell Failure - which essentially means that you lose some of the benefit of the Fighter class. Alternately, that Fighter//Sorcerer can't make effective use of all the spells available due to arcane spell failure, neutralizing some of the benefit of the Sorcerer class. You want to avoid those choices.
4) Look for combos that supplement each other. The Monk, out of the box, has a bad case of MAD - it needs Strength for melee attacks and damage, Dexterity for AC, Constitution for HP, Wisdom for AC and class features, and some Intelligence for the skill points. The Druid's Wildshape class feature supplies a Strength and Dexterity score independent of the character's base values - which means the Monk//Druid can now drop Strength and Dexterity, leaving just Con, Wis, and a small amount of Int as being the needed stats.
5) Avoid combos with a lot of overlap. Sure, the Wizard//Sorcerer looks good on paper as the Ultimate Arcanist, but aside from the MAD, both have one good save (the same one - Will), d4 HD, 1/2 BAB, 2+Int skill points per level, and they draw from the same spell list. Likewise, the Fighter//Barbarian looks good as the ultimate melee machine (using Core classes, anyway), but again, they've got a lot of overlap - there's only a one-step difference between their hit dice, they both have the same good save (Fort), and they've both got the same BAB (full). You can do a lot better.
6) Pick one party role. You don't want to get too spread out. You've still only got so much resources for equipment, and you've still only got so many feats. Pick a role in the party, and focus on that. Other stuff is a bonus. The Paladin//sorcerer uses spells to back up melee. The Sorcerer//paladin uses Full BAB, d10 HD, and Divine Grace to back up touch-attack spellcasting while taking hits and avoiding spells. They're the same class combination (Sorcerer//Paladin) but they're completely different characters - one is a Meatshield, the other a Sparkcaster.
7) Be aware of power curves. A Barbarian is pretty much the king of the castle at 1st, where the Wizard is always the first to die. The Wizard is pretty much the king of the castle at 20th, and the Barbarian is his baggage handler. You want class combos where, at any given level, you'll have something useful to do.
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blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
When making gestalts, I usually consider any class that gives long-lasting buffs to have intrinsic passive abilities. Artificer comes to mind, and it goes nicely with quite a number of strong fighting classes.
