Starting a Gestalt Campaign.

[Jack Simth]

When making gestalts, I usually consider any class that gives long-lasting buffs to have intrinsic passive abilities. Artificer comes to mind, and it goes nicely with quite a number of strong fighting classes.

So do Wizards and Sorcerers (Greater Magic Weapon, Mage Armor, Overland Flight, Phantom Steed), Clerics (Magic Vestments, Greater Magic Weapon, Wind Walk) and Druids (Wildshape, Greater Magic Fang, Barkskin) - and that's just Core, from memory.

 

[Cintra]

Gestalt characters aren't as much "better" as it looks like they might be on the surface. They've got the best of the abilities from two classes, but that means they don't get any more skill points or feats than the best single class they selected - and they have to divide those resources, plus their wealth, across the demands of both their roles. Frequently, gestalt characters end up being good at one of their classes, and okay at the other, because of that division of resources.

When we ran with gestalt characters, we had only 2 PCs, and they needed to be good at both roles, so we increased the skill points and accelerated the feat progression. I wouldn't necessarily do that if you have more than 2 PCs, however.

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Gestalt PCs can typically take on challenges about 2 CRs higher* than their actual level. This means you'll be throwing tougher challenges at the PCs. I strongly recommend that you subtract 2* from the CR of each creature before determining the XP values. Otherwise, you'll really accelerate the leveling up, and the game could feel like it's getting out of control. And you want to subtract from the actual CR, rather than count the PCs as 2* levels higher, because again, you'd be increasing the XPs too much if you do it the other way.

You'll also want to make a decision about treasure. Are you going to let them get treasure equivalent to the CRs they deal with (which will give them the wealth of PCs 2 levels higher, and will result in the need to increase CRs of opponents still more), or reduce the treasures that NPCs and monsters have by about 2 CRs* (which means NPCs will have very little wealth compared to their levels)? You'll probably end up mixing the two methods, and you'll probably want to keep track of where the PCs actually are, wealth-wise.

*The actual amount of extra challenge can vary - whatever amount you feel like you're increasing the CRs of reasonable challenges by, that's the amount by which to recude those CRs before calculating XPs.

 

[szilard]

1) Avoid MAD like the plague it is. Multiple Attribute Dependency is a character killer. Sure, that Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper, but you've got two primary casting stats to focus on. Now, if you put one side to stuff where saves don't matter (e.g., Cleric side is used for buffing, healing, and utility spells only) you can skip most the MAD... but you're still going to have some issues with it. There's some feats out there that help with this, but you only get so many such feats.

There's MAD... and then there's MAD.

I agree, two spellcasting classes with different casting attributes is probably a bad idea.

On the other hand, something like Fighter (which usually needs good S/D/C) is just fine in a gestalt with Wizard or whatever... as long as you concentrate your character toward where you have your good attributes.

Actually, a Fighter/Wizard (or Warmage, for armor) that specialized in ranged touch attacks would be very, very nasty...

-Stuart

 

[Jack Simth]

When we ran with gestalt characters, we had only 2 PCs, and they needed to be good at both roles, so we increased the skill points and accelerated the feat progression. I wouldn't necessarily do that if you have more than 2 PCs, however.

There's a trick to making it work with just two PC's:
Druids.
One is a Druid//Rogue, the other a Druid//Wizard. Both take combat-capable animal companions (ideally ridable ones), and train them for Combat Riding (druid bonus trick goes to upgrading to "attack anything"). Wizard also takes a familiar (one with either Scent (most of them) or Blindsense (bat)) and a lot of ranks in Spot/Listen (druid class skills). The familiar keeps watch when needed (very little gets past Blindsense or Scent, and as the familiar gets it's master's ranks, it'll have good Spot/Listen checks, too). Both players keep healing spells on hand and split the Healbot role, the two animal companions together make one decent meatshield (at least until the point where a Druid is a melee machine anyway), Wizard covers Arcanist, Rogue covers skillmonkey. Between the two and two-halves of them, they've got a full party.

There's MAD... and then there's MAD.

I agree, two spellcasting classes with different casting attributes is probably a bad idea.

On the other hand, something like Fighter (which usually needs good S/D/C) is just fine in a gestalt with Wizard or whatever... as long as you concentrate your character toward where you have your good attributes.

Actually, a Fighter/Wizard (or Warmage, for armor) that specialized in ranged touch attacks would be very, very nasty...

-Stuart

Already addressed - see tip 6.

 

[loganic]

I've playing with some combos.
Monk is a love child of mine that is at the same time harder than most classes to work, and I keep trying VoP, but it doesn't turn out the way I want it to.

Anyways, Amen to the druid/monk combo. wildshape and unarmed stack well. Additionally, It's possible to get a druid to grow from huge to gargantuam for a good damage boost. On top of everything else, if your monk is equipped with the right gauntlets, he can hit with the unarmed of collosal with the bonus str of being garg.

Alternatively, you just go half ogre monk, but there's no fun in that and you lose out in spells.

Marshall/dragon shaman. Very good auras. If you choose to get leadership feat, you can be the squad leader of some powerful npc, as well as buffing party members for uberness.

I'm not familiar with the scout, but the warlock also does very well combining with any stealth or heavy hitting class. Acid damage bypasses SR and DR, infinite flight, invisibility, greater dispell magic on top of summons, and bonus eldritch to weapons.

Warlock/Fighter/ This keeps seeming like an underpowered combo, compared with some of the others, but it couldnt be farther from the truth. It makes for very good melee dpser.

I've been curious about one's like Warlock/duskblade.

I used to be a fan of a glaivelock, until I discovered blade of destruction as substitute

 

[King-Panda]

I hate to rez a dead thread, but I have a question that fits well here. One of my players is set on playing a Gestalt Githzerai Druid//Monk/Warshaper (from Complete Warrior). I am using Rich Burlew's Polymorph rules (link at bottom), which state this about natural attacks:

Attack: The base creature gains all natural weapon attacks of the assumed shape. Natural weapon attacks are made using the base creature's base attack bonus, but using the assumed shape's attack routine. The creature may thus not use the same natural weapon to make multiple attacks as it might with a manufactured weapon.

Damage: The polymorphed creature's natural weapons inflict the same base damage as those of the assumed shape, modified by the creature's new Strength score. Don't forget that a creature with only one natural weapon adds 1-1/2 its Strength bonus to the damage for that attack.

These are his new rules for wildshape:

Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, the druid gains the ability to change its shape into that of an animal once per day. The druid may apply the Polymorphed template to himself, as long as the assumed shape is that of an Animal of Small or Medium size. The effect lasts for 1 hour/druid level, or until he chooses to change back. Changing form is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Use the druid's class level for all effects related to caster level, rather than total Hit Dice; any other class that grants wild shape abilities stack with druid levels to determine caster level. This ability otherwise functions exactly like the Animorph spell.

Knowing what the Animorph spell gives you isn't relevant in this case, but you can read it if you like (Link at bottom).

Here's my question: Does his Unarmed strike and any natural weapons he gains from wildshaping stack, change, or modify each other in any way? Could he use his natural weapon damage with his flurry of blows? Could he include his natural attacks (bite, claw) in his flurry of blows? Can he use his unarmed strikes in wildshape form? It states he can't use his natural attacks with mutliple attacks like he could with a manufactured weapon, but does that apply to his unarmed strike?

In regards to the Warshaper, how do their Morphic Weapons apply to this situation?

 

[Herobizkit]

Here's a few of MY choice picks for Gestalt:

Sorcerer // Favored Soul: Both classes have a short list of spells, but they can do them a LOT. Charisma does the spell slot lifting, but MAD tends to dissuade people from this combo.

Monk // Rogue: Terrifyingly effective move-n-whack character. Sure, the Rogue isn't as effective as it as a Scout may be, but the skill points make a very healthy RP contribiution WITHOUT having to be the box-opener. Plus, awesome saves means that traps will very seldom affect you.

Druid // Warlock: I'm playing this now as an Aasimar/Goblin (IMC the Aasimar is a Planetouched template instead of a race unto itself) NPC in a solo campaign I'm DMing. Awesome low-level functionality. MAD is a big deterrent, but I like the flavour of this feller... a short, shaman-like Goblin who harnesses the powers of nature and something a little more (less?) sinister. I'll be maxing out his Use Magic Device... nom nom nom.

A Dwarven Bard // Barbarian is also teh awesome for flavour alone.