Starting a Gestalt Campaign.

[King-Panda]

My PC's have been wanting to do a Gestalt campaign ever since I mentioned it a while back, and I finally decided to get around to it. I have a few questions to ask, and would appreciate some feedback from anyone who has played in one, or DM'ed one.

In the chapter about Gestalt campaigns in Unearthed Arcana, it mentions this as a rule:

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

A Barb gets Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level, and Imp. at 5th. A Rogue gets these at 4th and 8th (respectively). Am I correct in thinking that a Barb/Rogue gestalt character would get these at 2nd and 5th (As a Barb); they wouldn't "stack" and become available at 2nd and 4th, would they?

I plan on requiring each PC to take at least one full-spellcasting class for one of their gestalt class slots, mostly to keep them from varying too wildly in power (relative to each other). The the main purposes for this is to let my Weaker PC's (those that usually get stuck with the Fighter and the Cleric* role) have a chance at being just as important as the caster and the Batm- er, rogue. By giving each character a full-spellcasting class, will they be any more powerful than a "normal" gestalt group? By normal, I mean in reference to increasing CR's by 1 to make fights challenging; Should I bump that up to 2?

*I know clerics are not a weak class, but they almost always get stuck healing in my game more often than is fair, because 1) the PC who usually plays a cleric isn't that "good" at making a decent/useful cleric, and 2) the other players are @$$holes and don't like spending their own resources on healing when they know someone else can do it for free.

I don't think I'm going to have much trouble in keeping things balanced/challenging for these guys; I've been DM'ing for them for close to 7 years now, so I know how they play. I'd still appreciate any advice or info you feel like giving me.

 

[Zurai]

As long as you personally proof each gestalt combo, you shouldn't have any problem. You can get some obscenely powerful characters in gestalt (barbarian with the Lion Totem alt class feature from Complete Champion gestalted with Druid gets brutal really, really fast, for example; dual casters can also be pretty sick since you'll never, ever drain them of spells), but usually you can see them coming a mile away.


That specific "Features accrue at the rate of the fastest class" rule is the key to solving a lot of perceived Gestalt balance issues, by the way. Apply it liberally and literally and you won't have many problems. For example, for the longest time on the WotC Character Optimization boards people would tell you that you could do something like Fighter 1/Cleric X//Druid X+1 and end up with full BAB because if you just look at the charts, there wouldn't be a level where neither Cleric nor Druid gained a BAB. That doesn't work, because of the "accrue at the rate of the fastest class" rule. Both Clerics and Druids are medium BAB. A Cleric//Druid gestalt cannot exceed medium BAB, no matter how you arrange the class levels.

 

[King-Panda]

Alright, thanks for the info. It's good to hear about the feature accruing rule, I hadn't thought up that BAB progression before, and I can see where things would get out of hand.

 

[Rhun]

As long as you personally proof each gestalt combo, you shouldn't have any problem. You can get some obscenely powerful characters in gestalt (barbarian with the Lion Totem alt class feature from Complete Champion gestalted with Druid gets brutal really, really fast, for example; dual casters can also be pretty sick since you'll never, ever drain them of spells), but usually you can see them coming a mile away.

This is true. Keep in mind that some gestalts stack better than others as well because of "synergy" for lack of a better word. A Paladin/Sorceror is a prime example, as investing heavily in one stat (CHA) boosts the abilities of booth classes.

Another balancing factor in playing a gestalt campaign is that the characters are limited in their actions per round. Also, be sure not to allow any of the "gestalt" prestige classes such as Mystic Theurge, as characters can really take advantage of gestalt builds if you let them.

 

[Nordic Birch]

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

A Barb gets Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level, and Imp. at 5th. A Rogue gets these at 4th and 8th (respectively). Am I correct in thinking that a Barb/Rogue gestalt character would get these at 2nd and 5th (As a Barb); they wouldn't "stack" and become available at 2nd and 4th, would they?

IIRC you look at a single level at a time for most things. So a Gestalt Rog//Barb would get imp. U.Dodge at 4th instead of at 6th like a multiclass Barb2/Rog4. Such synergy is kind of the point of gestalt. If you're worried about power balance, check out the wotc charOp boards. They're pretty good at knowing what and why to watch out for and what to not worry about.

I plan on requiring each PC to take at least one full-spellcasting class for one of their gestalt class slots, mostly to keep them from varying too wildly in power (relative to each other). The the main purposes for this is to let my Weaker PC's (those that usually get stuck with the Fighter and the Cleric* role) have a chance at being just as important as the caster and the Batm- er, rogue. By giving each character a full-spellcasting class, will they be any more powerful than a "normal" gestalt group? By normal, I mean in reference to increasing CR's by 1 to make fights challenging; Should I bump that up to 2?

Play it out and see how it goes. This sounds like one those things that might look big on paper but won't be that significant in-game. They'll certainly be more adaptable but I think this one's more about changing the type of encounter and not so much the strength. They'll all have ASF problems, need to focus on more things at once, only have one action per round etc. All in all gestalts still have level based problems, especially creatures with special abilities and save based attacks will wipe out lower level chars gestalt or no gestalt. Once the level gap is sufficient that the barbarians fort save or the clerics will save aren't enough, gestalt is meaningles. An attack that's too much for any class at level x will be too much for gestalt level x, so I'd advise caution in increasing CR's although +2 is doable with thugs if you have a strategically good party even without gestalt. Plus gestalts can easily get very MAD with their classes. Maybe they'll end up requiring even stronger opponents but maybe not. Forcing a caster class might also lead to weaker tanks... Casting is where its at in the end but you still need tanks and they don't necessarily need or want a casting class in the mix.

*I know clerics are not a weak class, but they almost always get stuck healing in my game more often than is fair, because 1) the PC who usually plays a cleric isn't that "good" at making a decent/useful cleric, and 2) the other players are @$$holes and don't like spending their own resources on healing when they know someone else can do it for free.

I don't think I'm going to have much trouble in keeping things balanced/challenging for these guys; I've been DM'ing for them for close to 7 years now, so I know how they play. I'd still appreciate any advice or info you feel like giving me.

About the cleric. IC solutions? He gets stingy, he's got better uses for his spells and you'll heal naturally in any case. "I could have blasted that vampire with Heal but you used up all my spells on cures you careless oafs" After a couple of close calls or deaths the party will start stocking on potions and get Healing Belts.

 

[Nordic Birch]

For example, for the longest time on the WotC Character Optimization boards people would tell you that you could do something like Fighter 1/Cleric X//Druid X+1 and end up with full BAB because if you just look at the charts, there wouldn't be a level where neither Cleric nor Druid gained a BAB. That doesn't work, because of the "accrue at the rate of the fastest class" rule. Both Clerics and Druids are medium BAB. A Cleric//Druid gestalt cannot exceed medium BAB, no matter how you arrange the class levels.

Just a quick note: That was shot down immediately on the charop boards. It's just so enticing that someone brings it up every now and then to be ridiculed again.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I like gestalts, too - didn't see any problems when I played in a game with them. In fact, it gave all the players much more freedom to create more imaginative characters than normal.

Asking them all to play spellcasters isn't going to cause any problems - although I bet you end up with a lot of people taking Rogue or Fighter for the other class.

 

[blargney the second]

In our gestalt game, you had to pick two classes to take up both sides of your gestalt permanently. If you wanted something else, levels in a PrC would take up both sides of your gestalt, but all PrCs were open as long as you met the prereqs.

It worked out quite well.
-blarg

 

[Nifft]

That specific "Features accrue at the rate of the fastest class" rule is the key to solving a lot of perceived Gestalt balance issues, by the way. Apply it liberally and literally and you won't have many problems. For example, for the longest time on the WotC Character Optimization boards people would tell you that you could do something like Fighter 1/Cleric X//Druid X+1 and end up with full BAB because if you just look at the charts, there wouldn't be a level where neither Cleric nor Druid gained a BAB. That doesn't work, because of the "accrue at the rate of the fastest class" rule. Both Clerics and Druids are medium BAB. A Cleric//Druid gestalt cannot exceed medium BAB, no matter how you arrange the class levels.

Is that the current prevailing wisdom on the CharOpt boards?

I remember being yelled at about a year ago for bringing that very argument up (against Stormwind).

Huh, -- N

 

[loganic]

The campaign I'm currently in, treats gestalt characters as having an LA of +3, and it works fairly well. If you are only using core classes, making good gestalt classes is more limited, but i think that limiting your players to having a casting class won't limit them in power. It's just a matter of them being creative enough to find good combinations.

Ranger/rogues for really good burst
marshal/dragan shaman for a great aura's and mass damage
Crusader/paladin
Warblade/fighter/barb
many many more if you can find two classes that compliment each other well

I'm currently playing warlock/fighter using eldritch glaive for maximum advantage

I'm pretty sure it doesnt stack and a gestalt rogue/barb, would get it at 2nd/5th.

I don't think that a cleric is weak, i just think that too many of them get railroaded into healing and only healing. My friend made a destruction cleric that was able to outkill my dwarf fighter for quite a few lvls, and probably would have continued to do so.

Alternatively, in my previous group, my warlock heals because he scribes/buys enough scrolls heal through an elder dragon duel, but still manages to do the best burst damage.

A destruction cleric has to roleplay being a destructophile. Sure he can use that destructive energy towards reversing that, but you don't mistake that he would unless he had nothing better to do.

My friend would reccomend that if you were going to restrict them, then force all of them to have a sneaky class, such as warlock or ninja, would make some dungeon crawls a lot easier