D&D 5E Starting to Hate Hexblades

[jmartkdr2]

Hiya!

Hence, my conjecture that being able to "Fly" does not mean you have the ability to "Hover". Two different things.

Enforce the idea that if you are Flying (due to mechanical means; wings, for example), you are moving forward. If you don't have Hover listed as a movement choice...you can't.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I don't remember that being a rule in 5e. Could you cite where it's stated? The PHB only states that you fall if you can't move, not if you don't move.

Specifically: "If a creature is knocked prone, has it's speed reduced to zero, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell."

Since arrows don't reduce movement (until they knock you out), you can stay up and plink at enemies until they shoot you down, so long as you can get far enough above them that they can't reach you in melee.

FWIW, I don't mind flying races (there are several ways to deal with them) but aaracokra have 50 feet of fly speed, which is a lot of movement and part of a lot of really difficult to deal with tactics.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't remember that being a rule in 5e. Could you cite where it's stated? The PHB only states that you fall if you can't move, not if you don't move.

Specifically: "If a creature is knocked prone, has it's speed reduced to zero, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell."

Since arrows don't reduce movement (until they knock you out), you can stay up and plink at enemies until they shoot you down, so long as you can get far enough above them that they can't reach you in melee.

FWIW, I don't mind flying races (there are several ways to deal with them) but aaracokra have 50 feet of fly speed, which is a lot of movement and part of a lot of really difficult to deal with tactics.

Last time someone inquired about an aaracokra they were a Monk.

You can deal with them but it turns every encounter to be all about them.

Alsokindof screws everyone else on the ground as they tend to take more damage.

And aot of players use that mobility to avoid being near the combat screwing over theremaining players even more.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Last time someone inquired about an aaracokra they were a Monk.

You can deal with them but it turns every encounter to be all about them.

Alsokindof screws everyone else on the ground as they tend to take more damage.

And aot of players use that mobility to avoid being near the combat screwing over theremaining players even more.

I've played with ground-based monks who were able to use 50+ feet of movement to great effect, environment permitting. Flight just adds to that.

 

[Kurotowa]

I've played with ground-based monks who were able to use 50+ feet of movement to great effect, environment permitting. Flight just adds to that.

It's hard to objectively measure the power of movement speed and special movement types because it's so dependent on the DM's style. What sorts of enemies are you fighting? How much attention went into designing the terrain of the fight space? How smart are the enemies about coming up with counters for PC tactics? The answers to those questions will make the power of movement vary wildly.

 

[ccs]

I mean it's more the fact that you have to pick ASI or feats. Fine if it's one of the 'essential' feats like GWM. But if you want a feat for flavour you have to cripple yourself to pick it.

Bull.
It depends on 1) the character you're playing, 2) HOW you're playing that character.
I have a barbarian character who, for her 2nd feat, I took Linguist. She's now fluent in fantasy pseudo-Egyptian/Arabic - wich was of great help to both her personally & to the party during that campaign/adventure. Far more so than adding another + to hit/damage could ever be.

So why'd I choose Linguist vs an ASI?
Because this is 5e & I wasn't having any real issues hitting targets. And I was happy with her damage output, AC (even while raging), HP totals, Saves, etc. Another +1 to any of these wouldn't appreciably matter. Certainly wouldn't be interesting either.

So why Linguist vs some other feat? Specifically some combat feat?
Because of how play was developing. One of this characters ideals/bonds/whatever is that she's a survivor. The character was adapting to the environment/society she found herself forced into. (we were playing Desert of Desolation - to kick things off the PCs are exiled into the desert. It's either go forth into the DoD to track down raiders or be executed....)
Hitting things harder? Hitting things more? Doing tricky things in combat? None of that was what was needed. And she wasn't training/studying/practicing any of those things beyond what general leveling up would represent.
She was however, since about the 3rd session+, always trying to decipher the ancient scripts/runes/etc the party kept finding & trying learn the native tongue of the region.

So I didn't take an 8th lv ASI. Or a combat feat. And as a result my barbarian doesn't hit things quite as often or quite as hard as the next players. Nor does she do tricky things during a fight.
Instead? She's fluent in fantasy pseudo-Egyptian/Arabic.
Has that crippled her? Nope. Not at all. It has made her a more interesting character than alot of other players barbarians who just hit things more/harder.

If you want to simulate starting with just one level of fighter as something like a sorcerer, you have to pick 5 feats! Fighting initiate, weapon master, lightly armoured, moderately armoured, heavily armoured. That's all your ability scores lvl 1-19, and you can't take a single ASI for your entire progression.

1st, it's not quite accurate that you get no ASI. You do. +1 Str/Dex several times along that chain. You can (should) plan around that.

2nd, unless being human is an important aspect of this hypothetical character, you could probably skip a few steps by making a Dwarf or an Elf, or something.

3rd? This seems like a really convoluted method to express this concept. But if that is the route you deem best represents the character you're imagining? Go for it.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I don't remember that being a rule in 5e. Could you cite where it's stated? The PHB only states that you fall if you can't move, not if you don't move.

MM, Pg 8: {Speed}
Fly "A monster that has a flying speed can use all or part of it's movement to fly. Some monsters have the ability to hover, which makes them hard to knock out of the air (as explained in the rules on flying in the Player's Handbook). Such a monster stops hovering when it dies".

That's what I'm basing my ruling/interpretation on. First, it says 'all or part'...meaning not 0. Second, it specifically says 'some monsters' have the ability to hover...meaning that most monsters don't. Specifically...I'd say that only monsters that have the Hover ability listed (or convincingly described in it's description),, because it is specified here. That said, I would probably let a 'non-hoverable' creature attempt to 'hover' as best it could...but I'd liken it to strenuous activity/action... like sprinting or jumping. This would mean you can't do anything requiring an Action (like shooting a bow or casting a spell).

Now, some DM's might be inclined to allow a Flying critter to move a slow 5'...as the "...part of it's move". This, if allowed, would allow an almost hover...the flier is only moving 5', but this is still at least movement...which, for such rules-oriented DM's/Player's, would open up possibilities to counter or at least hinder/threaten to some degree because they ARE moving. At least in theory.

So, my reading of the rules supports my contention of "No listing for Hover...you can't Hover...at least not without great effort". As an aside, I also don't let fliers that don't do it "magically" move slower than 1/2 of their normal Fly rate. There's only so slow a raven or seagull can fly before it drops like a rock! Aerodynamics and Lift don't give no futzes!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[pming]

(double post!)

 

[clearstream]

I don't remember that being a rule in 5e. Could you cite where it's stated? The PHB only states that you fall if you can't move, not if you don't move.

Specifically: "If a creature is knocked prone, has it's speed reduced to zero, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or is being held aloft by magic, such as the fly spell."

Since arrows don't reduce movement (until they knock you out), you can stay up and plink at enemies until they shoot you down, so long as you can get far enough above them that they can't reach you in melee.

FWIW, I don't mind flying races (there are several ways to deal with them) but aaracokra have 50 feet of fly speed, which is a lot of movement and part of a lot of really difficult to deal with tactics.

In the MM under the heading of "Speed" it spells out that unless you expressly have hover, you don't have hover.

How that interacts with attack actions is potentially interesting. Because you move before or after you action... but not during it. I wonder if there is any SA on this, because possibly a flying creature that takes an attack action to fire a bow, is falling. Per XGE they fall 500' in their turn. Thus they must be higher than that to catch themselves (or take 20d6)... and therefore they might struggle to have the weapon or spell range to pose a threat.

EDIT Oh, but you are probably right about can't versus don't. So far there hasn't been much (PC) flying in my campaigns so I haven't had to look closely at the RAW! That said, it surprises me that DMs might feel bound to allow something they are uncomfortable DMing.

 

[clearstream]

It's hard to objectively measure the power of movement speed and special movement types because it's so dependent on the DM's style. What sorts of enemies are you fighting? How much attention went into designing the terrain of the fight space? How smart are the enemies about coming up with counters for PC tactics? The answers to those questions will make the power of movement vary wildly.

Yup. For me, key concerns are always - will this narrow valid strategies, warp fights around one thing, or overshadow other characters?

 

[clearstream]

Hiya!


MM, Pg 8: {Speed}
Fly "A monster that has a flying speed can use all or part of it's movement to fly. Some monsters have the ability to hover, which makes them hard to knock out of the air (as explained in the rules on flying in the Player's Handbook). Such a monster stops hovering when it dies".

That's what I'm basing my ruling/interpretation on. First, it says 'all or part'...meaning not 0. Second, it specifically says 'some monsters' have the ability to hover...meaning that most monsters don't. Specifically...I'd say that only monsters that have the Hover ability listed (or convincingly described in it's description),, because it is specified here. That said, I would probably let a 'non-hoverable' creature attempt to 'hover' as best it could...but I'd liken it to strenuous activity/action... like sprinting or jumping. This would mean you can't do anything requiring an Action (like shooting a bow or casting a spell).

Now, some DM's might be inclined to allow a Flying critter to move a slow 5'...as the "...part of it's move". This, if allowed, would allow an almost hover...the flier is only moving 5', but this is still at least movement...which, for such rules-oriented DM's/Player's, would open up possibilities to counter or at least hinder/threaten to some degree because they ARE moving. At least in theory.

So, my reading of the rules supports my contention of "No listing for Hover...you can't Hover...at least not without great effort". As an aside, I also don't let fliers that don't do it "magically" move slower than 1/2 of their normal Fly rate. There's only so slow a raven or seagull can fly before it drops like a rock! Aerodynamics and Lift don't give no futzes!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I believe it right to say that it has to use some movement to stay in flight, but that doesn't stop it making an attack. So a flying PC can circle in the air making attacks. Swooping in and out to minimise counter-attacks, unless DM escalates with more flying or stupendous range.

Hover just saves you if your speed is 0 (and I believe it fair to also rule, if you choose not to move).