D&D 5E (2014) Stat block for a CR3 villain sorcerer

[Tobold]

Well, as it is I don't know what the stats are for a sorcerer at either CR3 or CR4, so the question whether CR3 or CR4 would be better is somewhat moot. Would you use the stats on the table in the DMG on page 274 for a sorcerer?

 

[Quickleaf]

Well, as it is I don't know what the stats are for a sorcerer at either CR3 or CR4, so the question whether CR3 or CR4 would be better is somewhat moot. Would you use the stats on the table in the DMG on page 274 for a sorcerer?

Tobold, what flavor or "sorcerer" do you want this villain to be? Myself or others can walk you through the process of creating it step by step, and you'll end up with a suitable monster stat block.

 

[Tobold]

I was thinking draconic rather than wild, because the character is lawful evil, which wouldn't fit well with wild magic. I know how to create a player character level 5 sorcerer, but I don't think that would make a good "end boss" villain for an adventure. My main problem is that I get the feeling that if I make two characters which are identical in everything except their selection of spells, I would end up with different CRs. What CR is a level 5 sorcerer with Fireball compared to one who has Stinking Cloud instead?

 

[Imaculata]

My main problem is that I get the feeling that if I make two characters which are identical in everything except their selection of spells, I would end up with different CRs. What CR is a level 5 sorcerer with Fireball compared to one who has Stinking Cloud instead?

CR's are not affected by spell selection. A CR tells you what sort of a fight the creature "could" offer, but it is no guarantee. If you play the wizard poorly, and he has no backup, then he might go down before even casting a single Fireball. If you play him really well, then he might be a bit harder (but hopefully the end result is close to what the CR indicates). CR basically indicates probable difficulty, in regards to the spells and abilities the creature could possibly have access to at that level.

So if you give your level 5 sorcerer spells that don't deal damage, rather than spells that do, then obviously he's not going to cause a lot of hurt to the players. But there are many ways to play a sorcerer. It could very well be that your encounter revolves more around the sorcerer supporting his melee minions, rather than causing direct damage. In which case, the outcome would roughly be the same.

For example, I threw an encounter at my players a few sessions ago, where the spellcasters merely tried to dispell the defenses of the players, cast illusions, and dominate them from afar. This allowed for the melee enemies to put a lot of pressure on them. They couldn't even get into close combat with the spellcasters, because they believed the bridge had collapsed, thanks to a powerful illusion spell.

 

[Tobold]

So here is a stat block I prepared:

If I calculate CR just from AC, hit points, to hit and damage of the melee attack, the CR is 1/2. (Defensive CR of 1 after adjustment for high AC, offensive CR of 1/4)

But now consider the rule on DMG page 278 that says to calculate the expected damage of the first three turns and base the offensive CR on that. If the sorcerer casts Shatter on two players in round one that is 27 points of damage on average; round 2 Magic Missile deals 10 points of damage; round three a Burning Hands on two players deals 21 damage. Total damage 58, or 19 per round, with a save DC of 14 for an offensive CR of 4, overall CR of 3.

If I changed the level 3 spells to Fireball and Lightning Bolt, the sorcerer would deal an average damage over the first three turns of (84 + 56 + 27)/3 = 56 damage, for an offensive CR of 7 (after adjustment downwards for the low spell save DC), overall CR of 4. So I do think that the selection of spells does affect CR.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6691663]Tobold[/MENTION] Pretty sure that's exactly what Imaculata meant, it's just his first sentence was a typo.

I think you've estimated the Challenge rating of your dragon sorcerer villain very well...but I would make some different assumptions about how I'd run him at the table.

First, he needs some muscle to protect him or he's going to go down hard and fast.

Second, I'd assume that he has enough forewarning of the PCs that he has 1 round before combat begins to cast blink. But even if he doesn't get to cast it in advance, blink is a sufficient game-changer at lower levels (when PCs can't perceive/enter the Ethereal Plane), that it would both define the fight and likely extend the number of rounds out about 5 (these are the hypothetical rounds used to calculate DPR).

Third, while he's on the Ethereal Plane, he could use something to do besides watching and moving. Currently he has no spells that will help him while on the Ethereal (since all his spells besides blink are offensive, and low-level PCs generally can't reach the Ethereal on their own devices). In particular, I'd consider replacing crown of madness or stinking cloud with something non-offensive.

Fourth, you could even give him an extra proficient saving throw, and with three proficient saves he'd get a +2 effective AC boost, making his defensive CR 2. And 4 + 2 / 2 still gives you a CR of 3.

 

[Tobold]

Hmmm, I thought Blink only gets you to the Ethereal Plane between "the end of your turn" and "the start of your next turn". I had interpreted that as making it impossible to cast spells while gone. Oh, and yes of course the sorcerer has 4 guards of CR 1/8 from the Monster Manual.

 

[Imaculata]

@Tobold Pretty sure that's exactly what Imaculata meant, it's just his first sentence was a typo.

It's not exactly a typo, what I meant was that there's a difference between the base challenge rating, and the actual challenge that an enemy is to the players. I would not adjust the CR itself based on his selection of spells, simply because the game assumes that a spellcaster would have a decent variety of spells (both direct damage and not) at his disposal. But of course you can make an estimate whether he is below the CR or above it slightly. Just know that it is not an exact science.

It all depends on how you play the wizard. A wizard with stinking cloud can be just as dangerous as a wizard with fireball, depending on how you use him. That is where the muscle comes in to protect the wizard. A wizard that has mostly damage spells, and relies purely on that, will find himself in a bit of trouble once the muscle of the party gangs up on him. Good luck casting spells when a barbarian is smacking you on the head with a sword every round. Wizards don't exactly have a lot of tanking potential.

But place the wizard with stinking cloud on a good vantage point, with some other enemies to keep the players off him, and suddenly that stinking cloud can become a big problem. And I think that is a point that you already covered pretty well.

What I would do, is make an estimate of what the players are likely to do once they encounter him, and how the wizard is going to respond to that. What are your players strengths and weaknesses?

-Do they have a lot of melee power? Then better place the wizard somewhere hard to reach, with bodyguards, and maybe even make him one CR higher. You could even give him spells that weaken their melee potential.
-Are they weak on magical defenses? Then maybe exploit this weakness, and use spells that they'll have a hard time dealing with, such as ongoing effects.
-Are they strong on magical defenses? Then have your wizard bring dispell magic. He might have to deal with some of the spells that the players throw at him.
-Are they strong with ranged attacks? Then maybe have the wizard bring spells that shield him from projectiles, or put him in a spot where he has cover.
-Are they weak of will? Then hit them with illusion spells, and watch them struggle. As in the example I gave earlier, the party can't reach the wizard, if an illusion makes them think he is out of reach.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

If I changed the level 3 spells to Fireball and Lightning Bolt, the sorcerer would deal an average damage over the first three turns of (84 + 56 + 27)/3 = 56 damage, for an offensive CR of 7 (after adjustment downwards for the low spell save DC), overall CR of 4. So I do think that the selection of spells does affect CR.

You're right in your calculations for the most part, and the selection of spells can affect CR. Certainly a sorcerer with fireball is more dangerous than a sorcerer with some noncombat spell like water breathing. But blink and stinking cloud are very much combat spells. They make the sorcerer considerably harder to kill. To do them justice, they ought to be factored into his defensive CR. And estimating how much damage they prevent -- how many hit points they're effectively worth -- can be a bit of a judgment call. Just to ballpark it, I'd start by assuming that they prevent roughly half the attacks against him and so count similar to resistances. But they're more conditional, so maybe reduce that effective value by half.