Stat requirements

[IanB]

Nobody ever said allowing item bonuses to help you qualify for things was risk-free. I think the risk is one of the reasons that it is fine to allow it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The UMD section is in error.

Under your interpretation, I agree. Under my interpretation, no. Under my interpretation, you cast from a scroll, and thus the UMD description is not error. Furthermore, it doesn't conflict with the DMG because casting a spell is merely a specific description of activating it (so the DMG saying activating is not a conflict). This is further supported by a lack of errata issued (though I realize that would be asking a lot). I haven't checked, but I'd posit that 3.0 had the same 'error'. Additionally, you're also saying that the DMG has the same error (the one example).

The preponderance of evidence supports my case.

Your version is clearly a house rule.

Is it like Twowolves said, that you just have to 'win'? Perhaps you forget to read the sticky post by Morrus: "We consider this to be rude behaviour, and will moderate it as such."

 

[Dimwhit]

Hey Infiniti2000, what exactly is the debate between you two regarding UMD? (I realize I could go back and search through the thread, but this thread is getting way to long. )

 

[Infiniti2000]

Hey Infiniti2000, what exactly is the debate between you two regarding UMD? (I realize I could go back and search through the thread, but this thread is getting way to long. )

I used the idea of UMD (as a rogue) to qualify for a PrC requirement of 'able to cast spells' of some sort. Storm Raven argued that using a scroll is not casting a spell, it's activating a scroll, and therefore doesn't apply. I pointed to the text in UMD (and DMG) which explicitly mentions casting a spell and he countered with claiming that it's an error.

In other words, if you let items to qualify you for PrCs (and feats), then a pure rogue with an arcane scroll of dispel magic and mage hand and 1 rank in UMD can become an arcane trickster (assuming the other prerequisites are met). Furthermore, unless you use CW16 (I don't), the character doesn't even get hassled by the loss of the scroll. Of course, the +1 level of existing class is confusing, but that's just an example.

 

[IanB]

I used the idea of UMD (as a rogue) to qualify for a PrC requirement of 'able to cast spells' of some sort. Storm Raven argued that using a scroll is not casting a spell, it's activating a scroll, and therefore doesn't apply. I pointed to the text in UMD (and DMG) which explicitly mentions casting a spell and he countered with claiming that it's an error.

In other words, if you let items to qualify you for PrCs (and feats), then a pure rogue with an arcane scroll of dispel magic and mage hand and 1 rank in UMD can become an arcane trickster (assuming the other prerequisites are met). Furthermore, unless you use CW16 (I don't), the character doesn't even get hassled by the loss of the scroll. Of course, the +1 level of existing class is confusing, but that's just an example.

Are there actually any prestige classes that the entry requirements are worded such that a rogue could qualify that way? I'm away from my books at this moment.

 

[Jack Simth]

If invoking a scroll = casting a spell, then yes; most any of them; Mystic Theurge, for instance (just for a really silly one - imagine, 1 level of Rogue/Bard (for UMD), 1 level of Wizard or Sorceror (for adding Arcane spell levels) and one level of Cleric, Favored Soul, or Druid (for adding Divine spell levels), then UMD the spellcasting pre-requisites needed off of scrolls): "Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells". Casting a 2nd level spell off of a scroll (assuming it uses caster level 3, anyway....) is, what, DC 23? A human with Cha 16 (+3), Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) (+3), Magical Aptitude (+2), 5 ranks in Spellcraft (+2 scrolls only), 5 ranks in Decipher Script (+2 scrolls only), and 6 ranks in Use Magic Device (+6) has a total UMD modifier of +18 (for scrolls; +14 for other items), and can make the DC 23 on a roll of 5 or better, and qualify fairly readily.

For a straight-classed Rogue, the only real difference is a question - to what do you add the assorted "+1 to existing spellcasting class" you get from the PrC?

 

[Dimwhit]

I used the idea of UMD (as a rogue) to qualify for a PrC requirement of 'able to cast spells' of some sort. Storm Raven argued that using a scroll is not casting a spell, it's activating a scroll, and therefore doesn't apply. I pointed to the text in UMD (and DMG) which explicitly mentions casting a spell and he countered with claiming that it's an error.

In other words, if you let items to qualify you for PrCs (and feats), then a pure rogue with an arcane scroll of dispel magic and mage hand and 1 rank in UMD can become an arcane trickster (assuming the other prerequisites are met). Furthermore, unless you use CW16 (I don't), the character doesn't even get hassled by the loss of the scroll. Of course, the +1 level of existing class is confusing, but that's just an example.

Hmm, interesting...

I think I'll stay out of this argument.

 

[Caliban]

I used the idea of UMD (as a rogue) to qualify for a PrC requirement of 'able to cast spells' of some sort. Storm Raven argued that using a scroll is not casting a spell, it's activating a scroll, and therefore doesn't apply. I pointed to the text in UMD (and DMG) which explicitly mentions casting a spell and he countered with claiming that it's an error.

In other words, if you let items to qualify you for PrCs (and feats), then a pure rogue with an arcane scroll of dispel magic and mage hand and 1 rank in UMD can become an arcane trickster (assuming the other prerequisites are met). Furthermore, unless you use CW16 (I don't), the character doesn't even get hassled by the loss of the scroll. Of course, the +1 level of existing class is confusing, but that's just an example.

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that "casting a spell from a scroll" is equivalent to being able to cast a spell yourself, which is what qualifying for a PRC requires.

The most current printing of the DMG only refers to "activating a scroll", not "casting from a scroll". What text in the DMG are you referring to, because I couldn't find it referenced in your previous posts.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that "casting a spell from a scroll" is equivalent to being able to cast a spell yourself, which is what qualifying for a PRC requires.

It's not equivalent, obviously, but the point is that the PrC prerequisites usually state something like (from Archmage): "Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells". Note that dragon disciple is significantly different. If the prerequisite said something like, "must be able to prepare 7th-level arcane spells" or something similar, there'd be no correlation.

The most current printing of the DMG only refers to "activating a scroll", not "casting from a scroll". What text in the DMG are you referring to, because I couldn't find it referenced in your previous posts.

I rarely have access to the DMG while at work (and I'm still at work -- long rassa-frassin' day today), so I'm only assuming it's in the DMG. The SRD says this, however: "...she has to make a caster level check...to cast the spell successfully." Note that it explicitly says 'cast the spell' and the section is titled 'activate the spell'. I only assume from a lack of denouncing, that this is in the DMG as written. While certainly not proof, it's merely another corroborating example.

 

[Caliban]

It's not equivalent, obviously, but the point is that the PrC prerequisites usually state something like (from Archmage): "Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells". Note that dragon disciple is significantly different. If the prerequisite said something like, "must be able to prepare 7th-level arcane spells" or something similar, there'd be no correlation.

But UMD doesn't give you the ability to cast 7th level arcane spell. It gives you to ability to activate a scroll that casts the spell. "Casting from a scroll" is just shorthand for that.

I rarely have access to the DMG while at work (and I'm still at work -- long rassa-frassin' day today), so I'm only assuming it's in the DMG. The SRD says this, however: "...she has to make a caster level check...to cast the spell successfully." Note that it explicitly says 'cast the spell' and the section is titled 'activate the spell'. I only assume from a lack of denouncing, that this is in the DMG as written. While certainly not proof, it's merely another corroborating example.

Everywhere else in that section it specifically states "activate the scroll".

So, you are hanging your intrepretation off of a single reference buried in the caster level check section of the "Activating a Scroll" section?

Is there a real point to this? Because it just seems like another example of "RAW" silliness so far.