Stat requirements

[Twowolves]

If you're looking for a sentance that says, "Enhancement bonuses to ability scores allow you to qualify for feats", you won't find it, because this situation results from a combination of rules.

Some feats require you to have a certain ability score. They don't specify any exceptions as to how you get that ability score.

Enhancement bonuses give you a means of boosting your ability scores. There are a couple of specific exceptions listed for what you can use them for, but nothing to do with feats.

Well, yeah. The rule isn't explicitly stated. People are guessing as to what the rule should be based on other rules. That's fine. But until the rules explicitly state one way or another, then it's open to debate and interpretation. It is in no way open and shut for either opinion. To each his own. But in no way is either choice a "house rule", at least not until Monte Cook knocks on my door and tells me I'm doing it wrong.

 

[Dimwhit]

I'm convinced that any thread in the Rules forum, if alowed to go on long enough, will eventually become an 'is the FAQ official or not' argument...

 

[ruleslawyer]

To put in my 2 cents:

Except, of course, that in this case that doesn't matter. To wit: The rules are silent on the issue of whether temporary bonuses to ability scores allow you to qualify for prestige classes and feats for which you would not have qualified had the bonus not been applied. The FAQ merely clarifies how "permanent" and "temporary" ability score bonuses function (in this case, identically). It isn't making a new rule, or even changing a definition.

 

[Storm Raven]

Spells per day are so incredibly temporary, it's silly.

KD seems to think they are a permanent change.

They are also not a modifier to a die roll, which is what you criticized "all of the clarifications in the FAQ" as being. Now you shift your argument, because spells per day clearly isn't a modifier to a die roll.

They even explicitly state that if you lose the item, you lose the spell. Not if you lose the item, you lose the spell slot until you put the item back on. It's a temporary benefit. Feats and PrCs are not temporary at all. It doesn't "fit my arguement" because it is only tangentially related to the actual question at hand.

It doesn't fit your argument now, because you have changed your argument.

The FAQ isn't necessarily in error, it's incomplete. The question in the FAQ doesn't deal with the subject at hand, and until it does and there is an explicit ruling on this question, all anyone can do is extrapolate from similar rules and infer some conclusion. You have done this, and so have I, but we come to different conclusions.

"Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one."

That's exactly on point. The question is what effect does a temporary bonus to an ability score have. The answer is given, explicitly. You don't like the answer, so you dodge and weave, changing your argument as each time you advance one it is shown to be incorrect.

 

[Storm Raven]

Well, yeah. The rule isn't explicitly stated. People are guessing as to what the rule should be based on other rules. That's fine. But until the rules explicitly state one way or another, then it's open to debate and interpretation. It is in no way open and shut for either opinion. To each his own. But in no way is either choice a "house rule", at least not until Monte Cook knocks on my door and tells me I'm doing it wrong.

No, we are not guessing. The enhanced ability score increases the ability score. The effects of this enhancement have specific exceptions. Feat prerequisites are not given as exceptions. You think that, somehow, even though no exceptions are given, that the descriptions of the items in question should be read to include the text "these increased ability scores do not allow one to satisfy prerequities for feats", but no such text exists. No such trext is even implied. If there is any implication it is that such text was not intended - because if it were then it would have been noted somewhere.

 

[glass]

Well, yeah. The rule isn't explicitly stated. People are guessing as to what the rule should be based on other rules. That's fine. But until the rules explicitly state one way or another, then it's open to debate and interpretation. It is in no way open and shut for either opinion. To each his own. But in no way is either choice a "house rule", at least not until Monte Cook knocks on my door and tells me I'm doing it wrong.

You can keep saying it, but it won't make it true. For them items not to work, given the rules that are stated, it would have to explicitly say so (as the Int items do WRT skill points). Given that it doesn't say so, they do work.


glass.

 

[glass]

I'm convinced that any thread in the Rules forum, if alowed to go on long enough, will eventually become an 'is the FAQ official or not' argument...

Not from me. I don't consider the fact that on this occasion the FAQ happens to agree with me to be evidence of anything in particular.


glass.

 

[FEADIN]

From the DRS:
When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence.

 

[Twowolves]

KD seems to think they are a permanent change.

They are also not a modifier to a die roll, which is what you criticized "all of the clarifications in the FAQ" as being. Now you shift your argument, because spells per day clearly isn't a modifier to a die roll.

[/i]

It doesn't fit your argument now, because you have changed your argument.

[/i]

"Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permanent one."

That's exactly on point. The question is what effect does a temporary bonus to an ability score have. The answer is given, explicitly. You don't like the answer, so you dodge and weave, changing your argument as each time you advance one it is shown to be incorrect.

I would really like to see from where you pulled that "quote" of me, because I didn't say it. I said nothing about the FAQ when I said that above. I said every example in the rules about losing access to a feat was due to ability score damage and not loss of access to ability boosting magic. Don't put words in my mouth to discredit my position.

I have not changed my arguement. I will concede the fact that, yes, an enhanced score will give you bonus spells, and yes, that is indeed not a modifier to a roll of any kind. Nor is a bonus to a caster's spell DC techinically a modifier to a roll. They are still TEMPORARY benefits, which has actually been my arguement all along. A temporary boost to a stat shouldn't allow for a permenant benefit, and I don't think it does, even if a "temporary bonus to an ability score has the same effect as a permenant one". Feats don't require a "+X modifier from Str", they require a "Str=X".

Look at it another way: if you rule this way, should you not also say that any temporary boost to a stat, skill, or any other prerequisite should qualify a character for a feat or a class? I certainly don't think the designers thought so, but it isn't explicitly denied either.

 

[KarinsDad]

KD seems to think they are a permanent change.

KD never once said this, so please do not say that I think differently than I do.

To me, feats and skill ranks are basically permanent, regardless of whether they can be used.

If your Int goes down (for whatever reason), you do not lose skill ranks. If your Int goes up, you do not gain retroactive skill ranks.

Ditto for feats.

Ditto for BAB.

Ditto for Base Saving Throws.

There are only a few ways in the game to lose these "basically permanent abilities" such as losing levels (or dying or using the broken Psychic Reformation).


That is not true for extra hit points for CON, extra spell slots for spells, bonuses to Reflex saves for Dex, etc. These are temporary bonuses to abilities because you can lose them by losing ability score points.


With regard to extra spell slots, the ability enhancement spells in the book explicitly prevent that. So, the only similar rule in the book for ability enhancement items in the book is the spells that were used to craft those items.