Static Save Defense instead of dynamic saving throws.

[JVisgaitis]

I'm hoping he just messed up what he was trying to say, 'cause I think he was trying to say the opposite...

Wow. I was just in my waking state and I didn't even understand what I wrote. Um, yeah. Rolling an attack roll with fireball against 20 kobolds certainly isn't faster. I don't know where I was going with this sorry...

 

[Doc_Klueless]

No, the major difference is that with a single attack roll in area effect situations, most of the time either the attack affects every opponent or does not affect (or partially affects) every opponent.

But wouldn't each opponent potentially have a different Static Save?

For Example:

4e:
BBEG = SS 22
Minions= SS 17

Wizard throws fireball, rolls 18. Minions take Full Damage, BBEG takes Half Damage.

3e:
Wizard Save DC= 18
BBEG rolls 22, takes half damage.
Minions roll 17, takes full damage.

Wait a second... Aaaah, I think I get it.

The difference is that all "like" creatures (hobgoblins in group, kobolds, etc.) wouldn't have each save done separately, causing those creatures to have the same damage/affect upon them. Is that what you're saying?

Wouldn't it be easy to just alter each minions SS by one or two and still come up with the same effect?

4e:
BBEG = SS 22
Minions 1-4= SS 17
Minions 5-8= SS 18

Wizard throws fireball, rolls 18. Minions 1-4 take full damage, BBEG & Minions 5-8 take Half Damage.

I might be one of the few DMs that grouped my foes together for saves to save time and rolls, though. I have to take that into account.

Those DMs who rolled each save separately will be faced with the greatest change.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wait a second... Aaaah, I think I get it.

You got part of it, but still are missing two pieces:

1) Even if each group rolled the same save in 3E, the BBEG could fail the save while the Minions made the save in 3E. That cannot happen with static defenses.

If the Minions save, the BBEG saves.

If the BBEG fails, the Minions fail.

If the BBEG saves, the Minions may still fail.

There is no case of if the BBEG fails, the Minions can save with static defenses.

Out of the four possibilities, one of them no longer exists (assuming static defenses work in 4E similar to SWSE).

And by Minion here, I just don't necessarily mean cannon fodder. It could be the BBEG and his major lieutenant. Granted, the lieutenant could have a better defense than the BBEG for one specific type of defense, but that does not change the issue. I'm talking better defense versus worse defense, it doesn't really matter who has them.


2) Your 18 example is a rarer middle of the road roll case. Most of the time with static defenses (i.e. roll high or roll low), EVERY creature on the board saves, or every creature on the board fails.

Using your example:

4e:
BBEG = SS 22
Minions= SS 17

Wizard throws fireball, rolls 16 or less, everyone saves.
Wizard throws fireball, rolls 22 or more, everyone fails.

These two combined are 75% of the cases.

Only on 17 through 21 (25% of the time) does the BBEG save and the Minions fail.

0% of the time, the BBEG fails and the Minions save.


So, in 4E compared to 3.5 the percentages might be (as an example assuming you make two rolls in 3.5, one for the BBEG and one for the Minions and the chance for the BBEG saving in 3.5 was 60%, Minions 35%, same 25% delta as for 4E):

Everyone saves: 4E 40%, 3E 21%
Everyone fails: 4E 35%, 3E 26%
BBEG saves, Minions fail: 4E 25%, 3E 39%
BBEG fails, Minions save: 4E 0%, 3E 14%

But, this is using one save for the BBEG in 3E and one for the Minions which some DMs do and some do not. Having two minions rolls instead of one changes the odds to:

Everyone saves: 4E 40%, 3E ~7%
Everyone fails: 4E 35%, 3E ~17%
BBEG saves, One Minion fails, One Minion saves: 4E 0%, 3E ~27%
BBEG saves, Minions fail: 4E 25%, 3E ~25%
BBEG fails, Minions save: 4E 0%, 3E ~18%
BBEG fails, One Minion fails, One Minion saves: 4E 0%, 3E ~5%

Things that happened quite often in 3E (e.g. 50% of the time with this example) never happen in 4E. Ever. The odds change even more if the DM rolls a different saving throw for every NPC in 3E.

Things that happened more rarely in 3E (everyone saves or everyone fails) happen a lot in 4E. 24% of the time in this example jumps to 75% of the time with the same 5 difference in defenses in 4E.


This changing of the odds from relatively random events to high percentage extreme events (i.e. all save or all fail and the BBEG only fails if the Minions fail) changes the entire dynamic and tactics of the game with respect to area effects.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

This changing of the odds from relatively random events to high percentage extreme events (i.e. all save or all fail and the BBEG only fails if the Minions fail) changes the entire dynamic and tactics of the game with respect to area effects.

I think that the way most DMs designed encounters it won't change the dynamics too much. Yes, there were a wide variety of different things that could happen before but most of them had consequences I didn't like.

For instance:

BBEG fails, all minions succeed. It creates a situation where suddenly the BBEG was easier to defeat than the minions. He doesn't seem nearly as dangerous and the encounter loses some tension.

Some minions succeed, others fail. As a DM, I now have to keep track of the fact that minions 15, 24, and 25 out of 25 have more hitpoints than the rest of them since they managed to roll 19s or 20s. And remember which minis I'm using on the battlemat to keep track of those specific enemies. I already try to do everything in my power to avoid tracking the hitpoints of individual minions whenever possible. If I can write down "Minions: 26 damage" it takes less time and brain power to keep track of.

I also doubt that most players will think that the entire dynamic of their spells are changed. To most players, they are thinking in terms of "I will cast a spell and hope it effects as many of the enemies as possible."

 

[Philip]

Disadvantages:
1) The "thrill" is gone from the defender's hands. IE. No longer is there the exultation of rolling a 20 or the dread of possibly rolling a 1.

My players (and myself) have never had that problem with others attacking them in melee versus their static AC. There is still the dread of an enemy rolling a 20 or the exultation of them rolling a 1. Why would this suddenly become a problem with spells?

2) STACKING EFFECTS: This is the big one. In any system its easier to modify a single source than multiple ones. Now that Wizards get an attack roll, it seems to me that it would be much easier for that single mage to find ways to stack up a really high magic attack roll, compared to how the defenders can increase thier STATIC defense score.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Is this currently a problem with attack rolls versus AC in 3.5. As far as I understand, people can find a lot of ways to raise their static AC score, and being overwhelmed by a single fighter with a huge attack score isn't really a problem.

So in conclusion, I dislike static defense scores. At least with the current system, when hit with a fireball, I feel like MY fate is in MY hands when I roll my reflex save. I don't think im gonna enjoy a system where all the attacker has to do is beat some static number written on my character sheet. Where's the heroics?

I think the biggest problem is that you are not used to playing it this way. I rarely heard anybody complain about enemies overcoming their STATIC AC, while the attacks versus static AC have all the problems you now find with other static defenses. If you can give me a good case why attack rolls vs AC in 3.5 is not a problem but attack rolls versus static defenses (in melee and non-melee) will suddenly be a problem in 4E, then you have a good case.

 

[Philip]

If the Minions save, the BBEG saves.

If the BBEG fails, the Minions fail.

If the BBEG saves, the Minions may still fail.

There is no case of if the BBEG fails, the Minions can save with static defenses.

Out of the four possibilities, one of them no longer exists (assuming static defenses work in 4E similar to SWSE).

Just think about this, but replace fireball with arrow or sword at a static level. With the same attack is parried/avoided by the minions, but hits the BBEG. How were the minions able to parry an attack that the BBEG couldn't?

It is true that one of the options not longer exists, but is it really a problem. Does it break suspension of disbelief more to have the BBEG survive while all minions are incinerated, or does it break suspension of disbelief more to have a few minions still standing, while the BBEG is incinerated?

 

[KarinsDad]

Just think about this, but replace fireball with arrow or sword at a static level. With the same attack is parried/avoided by the minions, but hits the BBEG. How were the minions able to parry an attack that the BBEG couldn't?

What instead of a single attack, it is a machine that shoots out arrows.

In order for the BBEG to get hit, every one of his minions must get hit, even if he is standing in front of them.

Does that make sense?

It is true that one of the options not longer exists, but is it really a problem. Does it break suspension of disbelief more to have the BBEG survive while all minions are incinerated, or does it break suspension of disbelief more to have a few minions still standing, while the BBEG is incinerated?

I think it prevents game possibilities like the surviving minions run away and warn other bad guys whereas if the BBEG survives, he might be more likely to not do that.

Changing the entire dynamic of area effect spells means differences. Sure, everyone will get used to those differences, but it does feel "video gamey" this way. Area Effects never taking out the BBEG and letting a few minions survive is just not plausible. It's like being in a movie and something unusual happens that shouldn't. It does break suspension of disbelief for some players, not for others.

 

[WhatGravitas]

It's like being in a movie and something unusual happens that shouldn't. It does break suspension of disbelief for some players, not for others.

First of all, the BBEG can actually have worse saves in a specific category than the minions - perhaps the reason, why he selected exactly these minions.
Then, another point about the "realism" - an average raging barbarian at higher level has enough hit points to survive bathing in lava. Without magic. That breaks my suspension of disbelief much more.

Cheers, LT.

(Proof for the barbarian? Assume 15th-level barbarian, meaning 12 + 14 x 6.5 from the average hit dice = 103 hp. Now assume a base Con of 16 on 1st level, increased on 4th and 8th, i.e. 18, meaning +60 bonus-hp - we're at 163 hp. Now raging for +4 Con, i.e. 30 hp - now we have 193 hp. Bathing in lava does 20d6 damage per round (~70 dmg) plus 10d6 for 1d3 rounds afterwards (~52.5 hp), therefore a barbarian can easily be two rounds in lava (140 damage) and get out of it (additional 52.5 damage, totalling 192.5 damage) and is averagely alive and kicking (somewhat at 0.5 hp), enough to drink some potions. Don't get me started on buffs and probably being a dwarf)

 

[Stalker0]

If you can give me a good case why attack rolls vs AC in 3.5 is not a problem but attack rolls versus static defenses (in melee and non-melee) will suddenly be a problem in 4E, then you have a good case.

There have several good arguments explaining why its a problem, just read the last page and a half.

I completely understand the "mook problem" with area effects. It is painfully annoying for a dm to roll saves for all the mooks, and tally individual hitpoints, etc. It too much work for little benefit. But rolling one spell roll vs static defense isn't the only way to go.

Simply put in a "mook roll". Have the phb tell the dm that if they are running many copies of the same monster, feel free to roll a single save for the whole group and go from there. That's what a lot of dms do anyway, it takes care of the mook problem, but still allows players to roll their saves.

 

[AllisterH]

What instead of a single attack, it is a machine that shoots out arrows.

In order for the BBEG to get hit, every one of his minions must get hit, even if he is standing in front of them.

Does that make sense?
.

Wouldn't this be classified as COVER? A.k.a, the mooks standing right behind the BBEG get a massive bonus to their AC? Thus, it still works out logically?

Changing the entire dynamic of area effect spells means differences. Sure, everyone will get used to those differences, but it does feel "video gamey" this way. Area Effects never taking out the BBEG and letting a few minions survive is just not plausible. It's like being in a movie and something unusual happens that shouldn't. It does break suspension of disbelief for some players, not for others.

Wait. I'm confused. Are you stating that it is more *believeable* that the BBEG is taken out yet the minions aren't versus if the BBEG is taken out by a spell, the minions automatically are taken out as well?

Isn't the definition of the BBEG is that he's well, the BIG BAD, implying that he's much tougher than the rest of the minions?

Personally, I've always considered the current method more suited to a videogame since the computer can easily handle multiple rolls amond its mooks compared to a DM having to roll multiple times.

re: Speed of play
It is a wash from the player's prospective. Given that in the classic 4 (clr, ftr, rog, wiz), each one will have a different static defense thus the only difference is that you won't have any "funny moments" like when the monk misses a reflex save, yet the wizard makes it.

Personally, I'm impartial to the change as a player and slightly in favour of it as a DM.