Stealing

[Fingol]

why don't characters/ players respond more? Don't they notice?

Sounds like a simple question but I fear its a complex answer; I have avoided delving into it, hoping to find a quick fix on the forum.

I guess that is has a lot to do with who his friends are, what he is like outside the game (he is a really nice guy outside the game), the gaming community here being kind of small and half decent players are given lots of blind eyes. But also the history in at least one game he plays in.

I am coming rapidly to the conclusion though that it is the DMs he has played for that allowed it/ encouraged it. I am not denying my part in this, I have stuffed up in the past and allowed certain situations to get as far as they did.

I am not present in every game he plays in, and some of it has developed before I knew the people I now game with (shift of cities, etc...) but I have heard that people do occasionally stand up to him. Sometimes successful, sometimes not. Sometimes the party does it as a 'unit'; sometimes a player tries it alone (not a good idea generally). If he is 'found out' and challenged and it gets as far as him being dropped/ killed he shrugs and goes, "ah there is the edge; thats interesting". If he survives the challenge life goes on for him...

 

[ARandomGod]

Well some ingame stuff...

Cursed Items. Hey, if he wants it all... let him have it.

Heheh. Definitely. In fact, see my suggestion above for a nice "cursed" item that removes his other ill gotten loot. And all with only ONE curse!

Detect Magic. He will be in the area every now and then, and will have some trouble to explain where all that new stuff comes from, if asked about. Make sure to point that out to the other players, if they use such spells, which they probably do a lot.

This works well combined with spot checks and all on its own. Also, remember, a character who's likely to cast such a spell (Wisards and clerics) are also likely to really notice. (High Int and Wis)

Of course, you might have bards and sorcs instead. They'll possibly need something extra to know what's going on.

Also some stuff might be kinda obvious. The other PCs will have to ask themselves where that came from all of a sudden.

I imagine a LOT of it will be obvious.
Him: "Hey, where'd you get that sword"
NinjaLooter (NL) "I've had it all along.
Her: "Wait, weren't you wearing armor with a different logo yesterday?"
NL: "Yes, that got dirty, so I'm wearing this new armor now."
Everyone: "Mrmmm"

So... that statue with the gems pried out?
"Like that when I got here"
And those goblins lying stipped of their possessions, were they here too?
"Yup"
And that chest, with footprints your size leading up to it, a strand of your hair in the lock, and one of your lockpicks still stuck in it?
"Empty when I got here."
And what's in that big bag behind your back??
(http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=29)

Spot. Sometimes the others might be allowed to make Spot checks to see what is going on.

Definitely. And if they're not making it, be sure to give them a magic item with +10 to spot. Be sure that it's obvious loot, or given specifically to a character. You can take it away later if need be.

Sense Motive. If he constantly cheats the others, they should be allowed to make some Sense Motive rolls every now and then.

Definitely... These people shouldn't just walk away from where treasure should be, come back to be told by the mysteriously richer and richer character that there was no treasure, and not suspect SOMEthing!

Alignment. The behaviour would probably lead to an evil alignment (neutral evil sounds about right). This might cause problems all by itself. Maybe a Paladin (PC or NPC) will question him, eventually, or warn the others (if they are non-evil) about his presence or query them about him. This should lead to the other PCs dumping him from the party, since they simply do not want to cooperate with such a person (again, if they are more good-aligned). That would be just the same consequent roleplaying, so he better not whine about it, when he has to make a new character, since you will not solo DM for him.

This is where I disagree. There's nothing evil inherent in stealing. Stealing is inherently neutral behavior... possibly chaotic behavior, depending on local law and personal agreements. I'd say chaotic neutral maybe, but no evil just for stealing.

 

[Henry]

My best advice would be to stop playing games. It sounds as if all of you are trying to "catch him in the act" and do something about it in-game. If that continues, and you still play his "game" then you get nowhere except more frustrated.

If all of the players are honestly tired of the behavior, then you need to get together and ask him not to do it any more - doesn't matter if it's because he's a "better player" or anything of the sort. Simple fact is - if he's hurting the enjoyment for the majority of the group, you collectively need to address it (again if need be) and resolve it finally.

In our group we don't do "party shenanigans" because it wastes time that could be better spent exploring ruins, fighting evil-doers, or delving mysteries. While it's admirable to encourage player interaction, it sounds like this is a very one-way street for your group. Whether your players want to "up their game" to meet him or not, it shouldn't continue being disruptive, and it should be addressed face-to-face; after all, all of you have a stake in making the game fun, so all should voice their concerns.

 

[Staffan]

This is where I disagree. There's nothing evil inherent in stealing. Stealing is inherently neutral behavior... possibly chaotic behavior, depending on local law and personal agreements. I'd say chaotic neutral maybe, but no evil just for stealing.

IMO, enriching yourself at the expense of others is pretty much the definition of evil. There may occasionally be justifications for it, and the character may have other redeeming traits, but in itself stealing is an evil act.

 

[Thanee]

This is where I disagree. There's nothing evil inherent in stealing. Stealing is inherently neutral behavior... possibly chaotic behavior, depending on local law and personal agreements. I'd say chaotic neutral maybe, but no evil just for stealing.

It's not the stealing (I agree with you there, actually), the general behaviour just seems plain NE to me, totally egoistic and self-centered).

Oh, and one more thing. Some of your suggestions are very metagamey (like giving out +10 Spot items ). I wouldn't go that far. I would just use what the PCs have available and give them a realistic chance and point them to what their characters would most certainly and obviously notice.

Then let them handle it.

Also the cursed item... not something, that turns him into the most honorable and free-giving person. Just some cursed item. Nasty, sure, but not specifically tailored to the situation.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Chimera]

Why would you risk your life with--and split your loot with--someone who is ripping you off? It doesn't matter if the PCs are easier pickings than the NPCs. The PCs are your companions, your co-workers--hopefully your friends. You don't steal from your friends, no matter how easy they would be to steal from. You break that trust...you're out. Simple as that.

Pretty much what I tell any group I play with, whether as Player or GM.

There is no "magical" reason why your PCs are together, other than that they are trusted friends and/or business associates. If one or more members of that group are untrustworthy, there is nothing forcing you to keep working with them. You tell the PC to take a hike and force the player to make a new character. If the new character does the same thing, you tell the PLAYER to take a hike.

A couple of years ago we put together a large (9 players + GM) group on-line to play locally. At our first gathering, we found that we had two Monk/Rogues, a Psion/Rogue and a Rogue/Wizard. Four freaking rogues in the party. I (who was playing a Fighter, by default the toughest character in the group) visibly upset a few of them when I spelled out this philosophy and outright told them that my character would kill anyone he caught stealing from the group. OH WELL. I guess I saw, in their shocked looks, what they had been planning to do...

 

[ARandomGod]

I am baffled by the number of people in this thread who think stealing from the party is "a valid option for a PC thief." Do you guys also tolerate such a character if somebody else is playing him/her?

Of course! On the other hand, I also expect this behavior to be compensated for by the GM. Some characters are indeed thieves, and there's no reason not to have that behavior roleplayed. Especially early on. Later, when they perhaps feel more close to the rest of the party, they should share more. On the gripping hand, later if they feel less close to the group you have to expect them to need to leave the group sometimes. Taking as much of the groups loot as possible and dissapearing.

As a GM I give character specific XP rewards for roleplay, and the thief who's not close to the party gets rewarded either through XP or bonus items for this type of behavior. Then the whole party gets bonuses for learning to deal with him, or making him closer so that the thief comes to view the party as a hole as a part of his self. It's all about roleplay and characterization.

We once had a *wonderful* campaign that started with a thief character looting the entire party and selling off all their stuff... all but for the spell book, where he couldn't find a market... except for the mage that he stole it from! So he used his contacts to help the party buy spells...

The mage player (not character) knew that the thief had done it, and the character played OOC knowledge. We kicked the mage out of the game for not playing fair. Hell... that was completely compensated for by the GM. I mean, there was a REASON he had a spellbook with almost all the available spells in it. It was supposed to get stolen. (We told him this, he still freaked out.)

I recently got into this discussion with a party member in the game I currently play in. He regularly plays halfling thieves (though he picked a human ranger this time around). He too thought it was acceptable, even expected, for the party thief to steal from the party. He seemed stunned when I told him my characters--any of them--would kick such a character to the side of the road the instant they discovered it in-game.

Well, on the one hand I would completely expect you to kick him to the road if that's in your nature. Or for a character who would kill another character to kill that other character. In fact, I've been known to hand out XP penalties for NOT doing so... for bad roleplaying.

In fact, having the thief kicked to the curb is a staple in a number of books. The thief reacts in a number of ways, from tailing the party and helping them out secretively (perhaps eventually winning back into good graces) to tailing them and stealing from them... to setting up ambushes and graduating from party PC to impressive BBG, interesting plot hook enemy. (It can be fun to have a player run the BBG).

Why would you risk your life with--and split your loot with--someone who is ripping you off? It doesn't matter if the PCs are easier pickings than the NPCs. The PCs are your companions, your co-workers--hopefully your friends. You don't steal from your friends, no matter how easy they would be to steal from. You break that trust...you're out. Simple as that.

Why would I? Because I keep a careful eye on him and he's useful to me. Of course, I wouldn't consider him a companion, friend, or even... no, maybe coworker. Sometimes you work with people you don't like. I'd play with him because I've made arangements to do so. Or I wouldn't play with him if I were incapable of it. And some people just aren't capable of thinking on that level.

I also *certainly* wouldn't kick him to the curb. I would fear mightly waking up one day from a dose of sleeping poison, surrounded by my *trustworthy* friends, naked, covered in dew around a burnt out campfire. Then getting to town seeing all my stuff for sale.

Of course, I also wouldn't peacefully split my loot with him. It's all about flavor. The player of that character shouldn't expect you to, and the GM should give you XP penalties for poorly roleplaying your character if you're just letting it happen without a good in character reason.

Of course, you could go that way too. And make a house rule that average party XP must be within X levels of each other. Then reward the looter for good roleplay, punish the rest for poor roleplay of not doing anything about it (assuming their characters would), and make the looter have to sit out an adventure or two while the rest of the party catches up! With all new stuff!!

Heheheh...

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

Frankly, this is the kind of roleplaying and character creation I love. If the rest of the players just "put up with it", they get what they deserve. They need to step up to the plate and RP just as well as he does.

 

[Thanee]

Oh, it is certainly doable to have a thief in the party, who takes away from the other party members, still is good friends with them, and there is no problem whatsoever (even if the other players fully know about that).

It doesn't sound like it is like that here, however.

Bye
Thanee

 

[ARandomGod]

In our group we don't do "party shenanigans" because it wastes time that could be better spent exploring ruins, fighting evil-doers, or delving mysteries. While it's admirable to encourage player interaction, it sounds like this is a very one-way street for your group. Whether your players want to "up their game" to meet him or not, it shouldn't continue being disruptive, and it should be addressed face-to-face; after all, all of you have a stake in making the game fun, so all should voice their concerns.

Reminds me of an article I saw once in Dragon:

The best party balance is to have all choatic evil rogues. Plus, as an added bonus, you don't have to actually make up an adventure! You can fill up a whole game just by giving the party a potion of healing
An example of near perfect party balance.
Four chaotic evil rogues and a paladin
1) "I steal the potion from player three"
2) "I pick player one's pockets"
3) "I pick player 4's pockets"
GM, player 4 makes a spot check, you notice 3 picking pockets
4) "I stab player three"
3) I drink my pot... HEY!!!"

5) Paladin: "You guys shouldn't fight or steal."
Players 1-4... Flank, backstab!
Player 5 dies... "Screw this, I'm making a chaotic evil rogue!"