Stealth Advice - Sorry For Lack of Proper Introduction...

[ThatOtherGuy]

Hi guys, I've come to realize that my knowledge of 4e is somewhat lacking, which is distressing, as I'm now playing in a friend's 4e game. I wanted to try and find some people who had a bit more expertise than myself, but my friends are pretty much as clueless as me. Figured I'd try some forums and see what I could fish up!

Bit of background before I launch into my questions... I'm playing a thri-kreen monk, and the rest of the party consists of a goliath barbarian, an elf druid, a dragonborn paladin, a dragonborn warlord, and a human wizard. Bit of a motley crew. So far we do not have an actual stealth character, and since I've been leaning towards Ghostwalker as my paragon path in two more levels, I thought it might be good to try and fill that role myself.

Here's the info as it stands -

Lv. 9 Thri-Kreen Monk

Str 12
Con 12
Dex 21
Int 11
Wis 19
Cha 8

Trained in Acrobatics, Athletics, Insight, Perception

Feats:
1 - Fluid Motion
2 - Unarmored Agility
4 - Implement Expertise (Ki Focus)
6 - Superior Implement Training (Mountain Ki Focus)
8 - Four-Armed Flurry

Powers:
At-Will - Crane's Wings, Five Storms
Encounter - Drunken Monkey, Fallen Hammer In Repose, Strike the Avalanche
Utility - Swift Flight, Centered Defense
Daily - Spinning Leopard Maneuver, One Hundred Leaves, Flying Tiger Assault

My key role so far has been doing damage while setting monsters up for the Wizard, Druid, and Barbarian in the party to hit. I don't seem to do quite as much damage as the Barbarian, but I have been fairly useful in terms of punting mobs away from the squishies or towards the tank/melee, and my Mountain Ki Focus (with the Crashing Tide enchant) seem to synergize fairly well with that. I'm planning, upon my next level-up, to train out of Four-Armed Flurry... I don't think it's quite enough bang for my buck, and I was thinking of using it for a Multiclass feat. My dilemma is, given that I was looking at going for stealth, do I go for multiclass Rogue or Assassin?

I was looking at the possibilities, and I'm not sure which will really serve me better. Assassin would give me an encounter Shadow Step, while I'd use Rogue for Cunning Sneak. If I went Assassin, I'd be swapping out a power for Darting Shadow as an At-Will stealth booster, and with Rogue I'd be looking at Fleeting Ghost. My question, I suppose, is "which of these should I go with?" At level 12 I'd have access to Soul Dance from Ghostwalker, which to my understanding would allow me to hide and then move into combat as I please with either power. I'm just wondering which of the two options will most benefit me.

Also, another question I had was, is being able to combat-stealth as a monk really that effective? With Deadly Draw and Defensive Advantage in combination with Soul Dance's concealment, I should be able to keep a pretty decent AC, but I'm just not sure. I could be dissuaded I suppose, but outputting OMGDAMAGE isn't really necessary for me, with the barbarian druid and wizard around. My ability to position seems more useful.

Anyway, yes. I'd love any tips you guys have, you guys seem to know way more than me about the nuances of this game. Thanks for any help you can give me!

 

[WalterKovacs]

Fleeting Ghost isn't necesary once you reach paragon tier, as you can take the feat secret stride which does basically the same thing (and anyone can take that). Darting Shadow provides additional benefits (it doesn't require a new stealth role, and you can use it to cross a distance without cover or concealment to get to somewhere else that does).

Combat stealth is a tricky subject. For a rogue, it enables sneak attack. For an executioner assassin, it allows powers that require being hidden to set off. Outside of those two, it mostly gives you combat advantage, a huge bonus to avoid being hit by melee or ranged attacks, and a chance they may not attack you [either picking the wrong square, or missing completely]. However, rarely is it possible to pull off a succesful disappearing act in combat, especially without sacrificing your attack action to hiding (or remaining hidden). The Rogue's Cunning Sneak would give you a relatively easy way to hide once per encounter (especially combined with the paragon path chosen), but otherwise you'd require additional powers/items to enable hiding more often.

Out of combat stealth can come in handy (avoiding a fight altogether, or setting up an ambush), but in combat, it's mostly useful defensively outside of a few classes that benefit from attacking with combat advantage and/or from hidden.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

The only thing I saw on Fleeting Ghost that would have been useful was that it combines a movement and a stealth check into one action. I did not know about Secret Stride, but if my reading of Darting Shadow is correct, it isn't actually necessary to have both.

It sounds like the only thing the Rogue multiclass would bring over the Assassin is the once-per-encounter Cunning Sneak, but I'm not really convinced that's something worth losing Darting Shadow for. Flavorwise I think both mesh with the Ghostwalker fairly well. Given that we lack a stealth-whore at the moment, it might be a wise idea just for that reason.

I was also thinking of getting the multiclass daily power feat and picking up Twilight Assassin, as I like it thematically and it provides me with another way to get combat advantage, but I'm not sure exactly what power I'd replace. So far that's just been a thought.

Thanks for the help! If anyone else wants to chime in as well with anything I've missed that would be wonderful.

 

[WalterKovacs]

With Secret Stride, it's tied into 'normal' Stealth rules.

In general, you can make a stealth check to hide at the end of any move, if you meet the right conditions (normally total concealment or superior cover to start, concealment or cover to maintain) and you would take a penalty if you move more than 2 squares before the stealth check. The benefit of Secret Stride is that, unlike Fleeting Ghost, you can use it with any move (a teleport, shifting, etc) while fleeting ghost is itself a normal move only that ends in a stealth check (without penalty).

There is a rogue power like darting shadow, it's a level 10 utilty called shadow stride. It's not as good (you still have to make a stealth check), but otherwise functions the same way (allowing you to go from hidden, go across an area of no concealment or cover, and ending somewhere else with cover/concealment and remain hidden). So, if you do want the cunning sneak, that would provide a darting shadow-esque option while still having Secret Stride available.

With Darting Shadow, you don't need Secret Stride (it doesn't require a stealth check), but you do have to get hidden in the first place, and Secret Stride would apply to that initial check. Once hidden, you can just use darting shadow to maintain, although when you attack you get unhidden, and you'll have to get back to hiding again.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Oh, well there's where I was tripping up, I thought making a stealth check was a move action in itself. That does make Fleeting Ghost rather inferior, but then again it IS only a level 2 power. A stealth check, then, can be appended to moves that you make with powers as well? As in, I use Five Storms to shift 2 around a corner, then I make a check?

I like the possibility of keeping Cunning Sneak and going with Shadow Stride, but the only thing I can see is that stealth check and the possibility that I'll find myself somewhere where I don't want to be seen, but I fail the check, whereas with Darting Shadow that doesn't even seem to be possible. Guess it comes down to whether or not I feel like Cunning Sneak is worth giving up that extra bit of insurance.

Are there any other feats like Secret Stride that work with stealth for any character? I filtered the powers list in the compendium but I still missed that one, which means I've probably missed others. Things that work with concealment or combat advantage would be awesome too, since I'll be beelining Deadly Draw/Defensive Advantage...

 

[Quickleaf]

Well I play an elven hunter pretty stealth optimized, so here are some great feats.

Hidden Sniper- any concealment grants CA
Skill Power- shrouding gloom
Shadow of the Wild - requires Nature
Twilight Adept - rogue multi-class

I'm sure there are others but those are at the top of my list for heroic tier.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Oh wow, Shrouding Gloom is actually quite nice... might be something to going Rogue to have that and Cunning Sneak!

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

The Avenger has some nice stuff for this too!

Combine Silver Shadow/Cloaked Steps with Persistent Tail for some amazing fun.

You can also get a little strange and attack yourself with Temple Of Brilliance/Temple Of Shadows and use its effect to be able to roll Stealth.

We're at level 20 in our campaign now, and the DM is threatening (half-heartedly, I hope!) to give all foes around me "Tremorsense"...

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Some of this stuff looks like an awful lot of fun... I kind of wish I had more feats to play around with now, Persistent Tail sounds like it could potentially be very amusing on a Ghostwalker.

I'm starting to realize just how workable the stealth thing might be. The whole being-hidden-gives-CA-and-CA-gives-Ghostwalkers-concealment-so-you-can-maintain-stealth thing could work quite well, especially if I get one or two ways to re-stealth.