Stealth, hiding, invisibility and miniatures

[KarinsDad]

You rarely have a 10 x 10 square room without having entrances someone can duck into or around a corner. Having a single big room or big open field with no features in it is the exception, rather than the rule.

I'll take a look at these later tonight.

Did you take lighting into account for these examples?

Yes, a Rogue could move out of a room (which seems to be your prefered modus operandi of acquiring superior cover in your explanations) and then back in. But the moment he moves into a well lit square (where many encounter squares in WotC material are lit) that does not have concealment or cover, he's no longer hiding.

 

[DragonXNIK]

Yes, a Rogue could move out of a room (which seems to be your prefered modus operandi of acquiring superior cover in your explanations) and then back in. But the moment he moves into a well lit square (where many encounter squares in WotC material are lit) that does not have concealment or cover, he's no longer hiding.

This is correct. Which is why any character who cares about hiding is likely to stock up on move-and-attack powers such as deft strike. This allows them to step out of cover and make an attack with combat advantage in the same action. The doorway of a small room makes an excellent place for a rogue to make constant ranged sneak attacks every turn with deft strike and similar powers.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is correct. Which is why any character who cares about hiding is likely to stock up on move-and-attack powers such as deft strike. This allows them to step out of cover and make an attack with combat advantage in the same action. The doorway of a small room makes an excellent place for a rogue to make constant ranged sneak attacks every turn with deft strike and similar powers.

That's the point though.

The other PCs who take the exact same Stealth skill and have it to the same level of effectiveness as the Rogue typically don't have powers that assist.

Player: "How come my Barbarian can never hide?"
DM: "Because he's not a Rogue."

 

[MrMyth]

I'll take a look at these later tonight.

Did you take lighting into account for these examples?

Yes, a Rogue could move out of a room (which seems to be your prefered modus operandi of acquiring superior cover in your explanations) and then back in. But the moment he moves into a well lit square (where many encounter squares in WotC material are lit) that does not have concealment or cover, he's no longer hiding.

As I mentioned, most of the chances to hide would only really be of use to someone who wanted to snipe from the shadows, or had the movement tricks to either flit from hiding into further cover, or come charging out of hiding onto the field.

But then, I don't see the issue with that. Staying hidden in the middle of the room or while sneaking up next to someone will often require special tricks or lightning.

The Barbarian absolutely can get to superior cover, then head back into an area of normal cover or concealment, and then come charging out of it.

For anyone who really wants lots of chances to hide in the midst of the room, there are items and powers and tricks that will let you set up areas of dim lightning and concealment. For a DM who wants more of those opportunities, he can simply design the encounters to have them!

If your objection is that the average WotC encounter does not have rooms where every PC can be stepping in and out of hiding on every turn... well, yes, you are correct. It might occasionally come up, but that is rare. But most encounters have hiding available somewhere. Some benefits certain styles more than others. But 'melee hiding' has never been something especially easy to do without actively designing a build around it, after all.

 

[mneme]

Sure he can. Hide around the doorway, back up one square (and still have concealment), then CHARGE! All melee characters have a "move and attack" power; it's part of the package.

(and most strikers have a move and attack power too; not just rogues. Sorcerers, Rangers...Warlocks don't, that I remember, but who cares? They always have concealment!)

 

[DracoSuave]

That's the point though.

The other PCs who take the exact same Stealth skill and have it to the same level of effectiveness as the Rogue typically don't have powers that assist.

Player: "How come my Barbarian can never hide?"
DM: "Because he's not a Rogue."

Huh.

Interestingly, non ritual casters don't get the full use of Arcana, and Rogues get more use out of skill training in general as a class design with its utility powers.

Taking 'stealth skill' is not sufficient to fully abuse stealth, no more than taking 'you turn invisible' is.

But taking stealth -does- make you able to use what is there.

Sorry that you actually have to have a character designed around what you want to do... but hey... that's how roleplaying games have worked for 30 years. How is that a 4th edition flaw?