Stealth in combat. Evidence and advice.

[Otterscrubber]

When an enemy hides, you remember the last square you saw him in before he hid. So if a character is repeatedly hiding behind the same barrel, then popping out and shooting a crossbow at you, he might be getting combat advantage, sure. But he's not getting it because you forgot that he was there. He's getting it by popping in and out of cover so quickly that he catches you by surprise. You know he's there, and can walk over and stab him anytime you like.

Popping in and out of cover to take a shot just gives you.....cover. There is no surprise here if the enemy knows you are there and you are going to pop out and shoot him at some point. This is just combat at that point. Stealth specifically says that it only grants combat advantage if the opponent is unaware of you. If they know you are there, even if they can't see you constantly, and you are gong to be popping out to shoot them then it sounds like they are aware of you. It doesn't even say they need to see you to be aware of you. Now if you hid, then moved to a different spot and hit the opponent from a direction they didn't expect, I can see that being different. But just sitting behind something for cover just gives a cover bonus. If you start assuming merely popping from behind an object gives CA, then how about if I do something unexpected in melee, like oh, it looked like I was gonna hit you with my sword but then I hit you with my off hand dagger. You didn't see that comin did ya? I think I should get CA for that.... sounds kinda silly huh? Well this is how hiding behind a box or a table and getting CA for that sounds to me.

 

[Mistwell]

My Elven Ranger is looking better and better all the time.

I can't wait to use 7 move across difficult terrain into cover or concealment to trigger stealth!

 

[Lord Sessadore]

My Elven Ranger is looking better and better all the time.

I can't wait to use 7 move across difficult terrain into cover or concealment to trigger stealth!

While that would be incredibly awesome, and I'd like to do the same, elves can only shift through difficult terrain without penalty. Nothing there about normal movement being unpenalized for difficult terrain.

So now you just need to find a power that lets you shift 7 squares ...

Edit: Upon re-reading, you didn't say anything about the difficult terrain not hindering you. So, my bad. 7 speed does get you through difficult terrain faster than 6 speed anyway

 

[Mistwell]

While that would be incredibly awesome, and I'd like to do the same, elves can only shift through difficult terrain without penalty. Nothing there about normal movement being unpenalized for difficult terrain.

So now you just need to find a power that lets you shift 7 squares ...

Edit: Upon re-reading, you didn't say anything about the difficult terrain not hindering you. So, my bad. 7 speed does get you through difficult terrain faster than 6 speed anyway

Oh yah...

I think there is a Ranger power that lets you shift more than 1:

Let's see:

Evasive Strike (Encounter) You can shift a number of squares equal to 1+Wis Mod either before or after you attack; Yield Ground (Encounter, Immediate) Shift equal to Wis mod; Cut and Run (Encounter) After your first or second attack, you can shift up to 1 + Wis mod; Weave Through the Fray (encounter, immediate)) shift up to Wis Mod; Expeditious Strike (encounter) shift 1 additional square until end of your next turn; Momentary Respite (daily) Shift up to Wis Mod; Hit the Dirt (daily, immediate) shift up to Wis Mod; Safe Stride (Encounter, Shift up to Wis Mod); Bloodstorm (daily) shift up to Wis mod; Wandering Tornado (encounter, shift up to 1+wis mod, and attack again); Hunter's Grace (Beast Stalker Utility, Daily) Make stealth check, use that as your init check, if you go furst, shift up to your speed as free action (nice!); Cold Steel Hurrican (stormwarden daily) Before attack, shift up to wis mod.

Yah, that's plenty. So 1+Wis Mod is not uncommon. Elf Ranger probably starts with 18/18 (dex/wis). So by lev 14 you will have a 6 wis mod, which means those 1+wismod powers let you shift 7.

 

[invokethehojo]

When I DM I put the burden of logic on these situations.

Does a person popping in and out from behind cover get combat advantage? Cover is it's own bonus, CA is derived from not being aware of the attacker... once he's attacked your aware of him until you lose track of him again. Since in the books it says creatures in combat are considered to be actively aware of their surroundings I think that the only way to regain CA after attacking is to do something that makes the creature lost track of you... duck behind the same wall? Nope. Move to a wall several squares away making a stealth check against a target who is doing something besides just watching you (like fighting another character)... ok.

To regain CA your target must lose track of you, which could potentially happen in several ways... either by losing sight of you, the target becoming dazed or a similar condition, or some other event that blocks his awareness of you.

By the book a target is activeily aware of his surroundings during combat so it is up to the character to use those surroundings to fool his target into losing track of him. Strikers are designed to be mobile and use stealth to gain CA, so it is logical that it was intended that they use that mobility to gain that benefit during combat.

It is up to the DM to say what logically constitutes "distracting" an enemy enough to make it lose track of a character.

 

[ryryguy]

I followed the earlier thread... the way I'm planning to try running Stealth during combat is as follows:

1) To make a Stealth check in combat, the character must either have total concealment or cover, or must move at least one square; all squares the character moves through must provide concealment or cover.

2) The stealther is not hidden to any character whose passive Perception beats the stealther's initial Stealth check. Additionally, any character can make an active Perception check during their turn to try to spot a hidden target. (action type TBD)

3) When a stealthed character attacks, his target(s) get to make an active Perception check (probably as an interrupt action). If they beat the stealthed character's Stealth check, the stealthed character is not considered hidden for the attack (e.g., no combat advantage).

4) The cover provided by allies does not allow a Stealth check.

5) When a character moves adjacent to a stealthed enemy's square, he automatically spots the stealthed enemy if the enemy doesn't have total concealment or total cover, plus one of the following:
a) The enemy is gaining partial cover from a non-directional source (meaning it provides cover from all directions, like a small tree, rather than a low wall or tipped over table)
b) The enemy has only partial concealment.

That's what I'm planning to try. It seems like it should allow some room for stealthed sniping without making it too uber or too complicated, and without a plethora of die rolls.

 

[Eldorian]

Cover is it's own bonus, CA is derived from not being aware of the attacker... .

Combat advantage isn't about awareness. It's about having an advantage in combat. An opponent might be entirely aware of your attack, but be unable to properly defend against it, and that's combat advantage. Even if he knows what barrel you are hiding behind, it doesn't mean that you don't have combat advantage. He can't properly defend against an attack if he doesn't know when it's coming, because you attack from hiding.

After all, you get combat advantage from flanking. I'm rather sure that your opponent knows where you are in those cases.

People, it's not overpowering for a rogue to hide all the time in combat. He doesn't get some huge miss chance or something, just an additional 3 to his defenses, over just cover or concealment. And this bonus can be negated by an opposed perception check.


And I'm still not seeing where it says that you must roll opposed perception vs stealth in combat. By my reading, stealth is rolled against passive perception, and the perceiver can use a minor action to make a perception check against the stealthy person's previous stealth roll. This is how I run it in my game, and I either record or remember what the stealth check was for the monsters, and the players either record or remember what their stealth checks are.

The point is, a passive perception is part of an opposed roll. In fact, the only time passive checks are used is in an opposed roll. If you wish to argue this, you need to post page data. I'm reading 179 under passive checks, and 186 under perception. My reading requires rather few rolls, only rolls on the part of people actively doing something in a combat round, which isn't tough.

 

[ravenight]

The RAW seems to indicate that as long as you have cover or concealment from someone (or they are distracted), you can attempt to do things without that person noticing. Of course house rules and judgment are always applicable, but I don't really see why you shouldn't be able to get a roll to take your action "stealthily". If the target is unaware of the arrow you loosed, then you have combat advantage. Standing behind a wall, another person, a table, etc, should give you the opportunity to shoot stealthily if you are a lot stealthier than the target's perception.

Obviously, there are relevant modifiers - if the target is focused on you or wherever you're hiding, then it is reasonable to give it a bonus to perception. If you are in total concealment vs. regular concealment, then it is reasonable to adjust the rolls. But there's no reason why a particularly stealthy rogue shouldn't be able to sneak up to and attack an orc that is in the middle of combat with his fighter buddy. Of course, once he's engaged in melee, then he can't have concealment or cover unless there's some sort of magic involved, but if the place is surrounded by concealment, it seems reasonable for the rogue to allow an OA from the orc, back off into the shadows, then sneak back up and attack from hiding again.

Likewise, I don't see any reason why, if the orc didn't notice where the ranger's first arrow came from, the ranger shouldn't be able to sit in the same spot and hurl more arrows until the thing notices him.

 

[On Puget Sound]

A warlock multiclassing to ranger could train stealth... and get to add hunter's quarry once per turn. Mean!

Once per encouter. Warrior of the Wild has been errataed....(errr, revised, "errata" can't be verbified) by WOTC to say "until the end of your next turn".

 

[Surgoshan]

I knew that! I just... misspoke.