Stealth in combat. Evidence and advice.

[The Grackle]

Part of the problem is that the stealth rules use words that everyone reads a shade differently, like: "noticed," "aware," and "hidden." Some read "aware of" as "I saw a ninja a second ago, and I'm very aware of his existence," and others, "I can see the ninja right this second." And then these words are all weirdly conflated throughout the text.

Another problem is that some people think of Hidden as a state like invisible-- like you toggle between hidden and unhidden. It's not. Hidden is relative between creatures. You could be hidden to some enemies and clearly visible to others depending on concealment, cover, and perception.

 

[Eldorian]

Part of the problem is that the stealth rules use words that everyone reads a shade differently, like: "noticed," "aware," and "hidden." Some read "aware of" as "I saw a ninja a second ago, and I'm very aware of his existence," and others, "I can see the ninja right this second." And then these words are all weirdly conflated throughout the text.

You may be right here.

Another problem is that some people think of Hidden as a state like invisible-- like you toggle between hidden and unhidden. It's not. Hidden is relative between creatures. You could be hidden to some enemies and clearly visible to others depending on concealment, cover, and perception.

You're wrong here. Hidden is a state like invisible. I point out, for example, shadow stride, page 122. It requires that you be hidden to use.

And invisible can be a relative state, read the warlock at will power eyebite, 132.

 

[Surgoshan]

You can be hidden from some enemies and not from other.

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The wall hides you from 1, 2, 3, 4. You beat their perception checks. But you're not hidden from 5.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Part of the problem is that the stealth rules use words that everyone reads a shade differently, like: "noticed," "aware," and "hidden." Some read "aware of" as "I saw a ninja a second ago, and I'm very aware of his existence," and others, "I can see the ninja right this second." And then these words are all weirdly conflated throughout the text.

Another problem is that some people think of Hidden as a state like invisible-- like you toggle between hidden and unhidden. It's not. Hidden is relative between creatures. You could be hidden to some enemies and clearly visible to others depending on concealment, cover, and perception.

Good observation, if they defined these terms in a bit more detail for game mechanic purposes I think it would clear up a lot of confusion. CA while stealthed clearly depends on whether or not the target is aware, but there is plenty of room for subjective interpretation there.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think that perhaps a huge part of this is that people are still under the misapprehension that gaining sneak attacks is something that should be hard to do.

In 2e, backstab had the potential to do a (proportionally) huge amount of extra damage, and so was rarely, if ever, allowed to work.

In 3e, sneak attack did a huge amount of damage in extreme circumstances (taking anything and everything to increase the number of hits per round and the like). In normal circumstances it was fine. It was allowed to work 50% of the time or so unless it was abused, in which case it worked all the time. It still wasn't part of any of the crazy character optimization builds.

In 4e, sneak attack is a fixed amount of damage per round, given to a class whos damage output is intended to be high, and whos damage output is pretty much set with sneak attack taken into account. If a rogue gets sneak attack every single round, he is performing at his intended level of effectiveness. Achieving combat advantage versus his target is the rogue's round-by-round game (similar to the warlock and rangers "marking the target I actually want to hit" game).

Other characters can easily gain combat advantage in melee too. In fact usually the (melee) rogue will be granting it to them.

I've not noticed the ranged powers having a significant edge over melee powers to make up for their lack of combat advantage. In fact usually they do a little less damage, or have some other minor disadvantage (the ranger for instance has a harder time ensuring that he can make his best target into his quarry if he's not in melee)

I come to the conclusion that it's not terribly unbalanced therefore for ranged attackers to get combat advantage.

For most classes this will cost them somewhat.

Finally - there's a fair bit more to effective use of cover than simply standing behind an object. Combat training courses usually include a chunk on making effective use of cover, and a significant part of that is snap-shooting: popping out of your cover, aquiring a target, firing before your target notices you, and ducking back before they can respond. The cover makes you more effective in an offensive capacity, not just a defensive one.

 

[Surgoshan]

Saeviomagy wins the stealth argument.

 

[The Grackle]

And invisible can be a relative state, read the warlock at will power eyebite, 132.

Ooooh. Situational/relative invisibility; Nice Catch. There's always an exception, isn't there? Still most of the time invisibility is ON or OFF and applies to everyone. And from reading some of the threads at gleemax, that idea seemed to trip people up; they thought of Stealth "I'm hidden, so no one can see me," or "I'm not hidden, so everyone can see me."

You're wrong here. Hidden is a state like invisible. I point out, for example, shadow stride, page 122. It requires that you be hidden to use.

I think of hidden as a state, and it's certainly implied, but there's no "Hidden" w/it's own nice grey box in the combat section. You get CA when a defender is "unaware of you," or "unable to see attacker." A successful stealth check = "hidden from view" = total concealment(?) = CA.

Also, since stealth now covers 3e's Move Silently and Hide there's sort of a weird overlap . A creature might not see you, but can pinpoint your square. Is that "aware"? Hell, I don't know.

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Really, the rules seem solid; it's just the phrasing and organization.
I'll bet the designers/playtesters understood the rules so well beforehand that they didn't realize it would sound confusing to someone coming at it fresh.

 

[Victim]

I have to say that in play, the perpetually stealthed warlock was not much of an asset. Invisible warlock -> more attacks going to the other characters. More attacks going to the other characters means that our healing (second winds, since our group lacks a leader) was overwhelmed.

The ability to make one's self a pain in the rear to target is a useful ability. But applied all the time, it just increases the foes' ability to focus fire.

 

[zlorf]

Rules questions (stealth, magic missle & goblin brute)

Hi,
WARNING : #3 Might be a KotS spoiler
A couple a questions, that came up in our last session:

1) Can you take 10 on Stealth Checks?

2) Whats this actually mean under special for Magic Missle?
Special: This power counts as a ranged basic attack. When
a power allows you to make a ranged basic attack, you can
use this power.

3) Can a goblin elite brute, use his dual axe ability while in a bloodied craze?

TIA
Z