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Stealth in Combat?

MindWanderer said:
Doesn't work. Second Chance is an immediate interrupt, and you can't use immediate actions on your own turn.
Thanks for pointing that out! Fortunately I never used it that (wrong) way in combat when we played but I need to be aware for the future.
Scalding said:
Probably meant Nimble Reaction.
No, he's right. I was referring to both but only Nimble Reaction + Artful Dodger is applicable to OAs. Even that (+5 AC vs OAs) is plenty insurance and incentive to dart past enemies. I think I risked ~5 AOs over the game session and got hit by 1.
 

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arghost

First Post
Harr said:
(Yes, this means that you can't become 'hidden' when an object provides a single square of cover, since you can't move around within the covered area. So be it.)
That makes no sense. I would allow a character to take a move action, move 0 squares and then hide. The action is then minor adjustments to blend in with the cover.
 

Eryndur

Explorer
I'm still a bit confused. Consider this brief scenario, based on Harr's interpretation, and tell me if I'm understanding things correctly:

Enemies abound within the room, so at least one has line of sight to the rogue at all times. The rogue slips behind a 2x1 chunk of wall as a move action. He now has cover from his intended target, but at this stage, his target knows where he is, correct? By my understanding, this move into cover cannot be done stealthily during combat, because you cannot even attempt stealth unless you have already achieved cover/concealment.

The rogue wants to gain combat advantage through stealth, so he does the following:
- As a second move action, he moves stealthily behind cover to the next square over. With a successful Stealth check at the end of the move, his target is now unaware of his location, and thus grants combat advantage to the rogue. That's two moves, so assuming he doesn't use an action point, his turn is basically over.

Next round, the rogue wants to sneak attack the target he has combat advantage against. Here's where I get confused. Let's say the rogue has to step out from behind cover in order to get line of sight to his target so he can throw his dagger. The rules say that if an enemy has unobstructed line of sight to you, then they are aware of you, with no Perception check needed.

So, if the rogue -- though currently being successfully stealthy behind cover -- steps out of cover, his intended target sees him immediately, and combat advantage is lost before the rogue attacks.

Assuming this is correct, how does the rogue successfully sneak attack his target using stealth? For that matter, how does the rogue sneak attack anybody using stealth, as the rules state that if even if you've successfully stealthed, a later attack negates this success?

What am I missing here?
 

unan oranis

First Post
Harr said:
Ok, stealth in combat is an ambiguous issue as written in the PHB and you're likely to get a bunch of different answers from different people. Go with what sounds most within the intent of the rules to you and don't pay too much attention to everybody else's interpretations but your own (especially, no offense to anyone, those claiming that their own interpretations are obvious and explicitly stated in the rules etc) until an official errata or clarification is published somewhere.

That said, this is how I, personally, have interpreted the rules in the PHB after much discussion and debate with other DMs. I believe they follow the original intent of the rules and are fair to the rogue.



No, the section of "ally-cover" states that "When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover."

Therefore your alliy counts as cover only for the purposes of determining the enemy's ranged attack against you, nothing else.



No, if you have cover against one or several enemies, and you take an action which you wnt to take stealthily, you make an opposed Stealth roll versus their Active Perception (if the creature is currently actively fighting you) or their Passive Perception (if the creature is fighting someone else or otherwise not focused particularly on you), and are then hidden to that creature.



Yes, once you have cover (and only after you've achieved cover) you can take a stealhy action to attempt to hide.

Note that there is no actual 'hide' action, as in 'this is me hiding now'. You roll as Stealth roll as part of another action which you want to do stealthily. If you want to hide in a tree, first you need to move behind the tree and gain cover from an enemy, then you would try to climb this tree with a Stealth roll included in the action, and if you pass it, you are then hidden up in the tree for and and all creatures you beat with the roll.

If you want to hide among some bushes, you would need to first enter the bushes to get cover, then with another separate move action move inside the bushes to another location, but this time stealthily, so that now you are hidden in a spot noone saw you go into, therefore they are unaware of your exact location and you can get CA against whoever failed their opposed Perception.

Once you attack an enemy, that enemy becomes aware of you and you can't sneak-attack that particular enemy from that particular location any more, you have to either stealthily attack someone else or stealthily move somewhere else (but it can be as simple as just moving to the next square over that has cover).

Whether you can take a Stealth roll with the very action that moves you under cover is debatable, I have interpreted that no, you can't do that, since you don't have cover at the beginning or middle of that move. You must have cover to attempt perform an action stealthily.

(Yes, this means that you can't become 'hidden' when an object provides a single square of cover, since you can't move around within the covered area. So be it.)



Actually, with a well-built area rogues are plenty happy with hiding options. The Kobold lair outside is filled with trees that grant concealment, for instance. The other two starting encounters also have plenty of areas which grant it. Our rogue had lots of fun running around in them :)

The Inner Kobold Lair has a bunch of free-standing walls, our rogue just hid behind the cover of the center wall (on the north side) and walked over to the other corner and started taking sneal-attack potshots at the kobolds on the southside (while the paladin kept the kobolds up on the north side busy).

That said, yes the rogue will be much more effective once he gets a few concealment-granting abilities under his belt.



Nope, ally-cover does not count as cover for purposes of hiding. But it's a good question that has popped up several times.


As I said in the beginning, this is interpretation, but it;s the interpretation that I like the most, makes the most logical sense to me, and seems most in line with what is intended of Stealth. Many others' interpretations may vary, and they are probably fine too, until we get some official message on this.



I would run things pretty close to what you've written here, except that so long as any one enemy is aware of you, all the enemies are aware of you (talking is a free action taken out of turn order).

--

unan
 

Xzylvador

First Post
Eryndur said:
The rogue wants to gain combat advantage through stealth, so he does the following:
- As a second move action, he moves stealthily behind cover to the next square over. With a successful Stealth check at the end of the move, his target is now unaware of his location, and thus grants combat advantage to the rogue. That's two moves, so assuming he doesn't use an action point, his turn is basically over.

Why 2 move actions? The stealth check is part of a move action, so if he steps 2 squares to get behind cover, he can "stealth" the movement to the 3rd square, instead of taking a seperate move for it...


Eryndur said:
Next round, the rogue wants to sneak attack the target he has combat advantage against. Here's where I get confused. Let's say the rogue has to step out from behind cover in order to get line of sight to his target so he can throw his dagger. The rules say that if an enemy has unobstructed line of sight to you, then they are aware of you, with no Perception check needed.

So, if the rogue -- though currently being successfully stealthy behind cover -- steps out of cover, his intended target sees him immediately, and combat advantage is lost before the rogue attacks.

Assuming this is correct, how does the rogue successfully sneak attack his target using stealth? For that matter, how does the rogue sneak attack anybody using stealth, as the rules state that if even if you've successfully stealthed, a later attack negates this success?

What am I missing here?

Could he use the at-will which lets you move 2 squares AND attack as a standard action?
Or houserule that the "First Strike" rogue skill also means you get Combat Advantage against enemies that didn't see you at the start of your turn until the start of your next turn.
Ugh, starting to hate all the houseruling that seems to be required to make 4e make more sense...
 

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