Stealth is useless in low level dungeon crawls.

[Terramotus]

So, I snagged my books at a local bookstore, and I've been reading through them. While reading through the Combat chapter of the DMG, I noticed something that made me do a double take under the Surprise section...

If the PCs are moving at normal speed through the dungeon and making no attempt at stealth, monsters in a room behind a door hear them with a DC 25 Perception check (active or passive). If the PCs are quiet, the PCs make a Stealth check with a +5 bonus (to account for the muffling effect of the door) to set the monsters’ Perception DC.

So, wait a minute. If the party is just tromping along without a care in the world and the monsters are behind a closed wooden door, there's a DC 25 Perception check. That's fine. But if, say, the Rogue wants to sneak up on said door and listen in, being as quiet as possible, he only gets a +5 to his stealth check?

That means that a 1st character with 20 Dex, trained in Stealth, has only a +10 base bonus +5 for the circumstance for a total of +15. That means that the character has only a 50% chance of doing better than a character in big heavy plate making no attempt at stealth, and might even do worse. Does that sound right?

Not only that, but a quick scan of of the MM tells me that said DC 25 Perception check is well out of the range of most low level humanoids even rolling well, and certainly out of the range of their passive Perception scores. I wonder if this is a typo and maybe should read DC 15. That's still odd, but a little more sane. Or maybe I'm reading this wrong. Anyone else with the books have any insight?

 

[NMcCoy]

Having read just your post (and not the rules) I'm still almost certain it's supposed to be DC 15. Consider it basically "party, collectively, is 'taking 10' and not even trying, +5 for the door." If the door was not there and the party just tromped by, then it'd be DC 10, or a freebie for pretty much anything's passive perception. And a trained stealth check is then much more likely to improve things. Might want to bring this up in the "errors in the books" thread.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Heavy plate has an armor check penalty

 

[Heselbine]

That was my first reaction. Is there a modifier for being behind a door? If it's +5 to DC then there's your answer - it's a mistake.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

That was my first reaction. Is there a modifier for being behind a door? If it's +5 to DC then there's your answer - it's a mistake.

Im not really sure what it is. It doesnt seem to follow the rules of stealth from the PHB, nor does it follow its own rules. The biggest issue is the wording.

If the PCs are quiet, the PCs make a Stealth check with a +5 bonus (to account for the muffling effect of the door) to set the monsters’ Perception DC.

What does that mean? Is it another one of those "no healing surges left expressed as a negative number" kind of deals?

Personally I am going to rule it as a DC 15 with a +5 if its through a door to hear something coming such that anything that makes its check wont be suprised. However if the aproaching party is intentionally being silent then its stealth vs perception (passive or active) and +5 to stealth if the parties are seperated by a door.

 

[OakwoodDM]

What does that mean? Is it another one of those "no healing surges left expressed as a negative number" kind of deals?

No, I think it means that the PCs make a stealth check with a plus 5 bonus (for the door) and you use that for the DC of any monsters' perception checks (passive or active). Pretty much what it says.

I'm with others that it's probably supposed to be DC 15 without trying. 10 as a default, +5 for the door.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Considering the table in the next column lists "quiet conversation" as a DC15 check for "Listening at a Door" the paragraph does indeed seem to be messed up.

Though whether it is the DC25 (monsters are not trying to listen so it seems reasonable - if the monsters are listening you can refer to the table) or the +5 for being stelathy (taken from the table) I'm not sure.

Certainly this section seems to be a big mess, as apparently whispering is significantly louder than drawing weapons and other battle preparations. (whispers DC25, Battle prep DC 35!).

 

[ozziewolf]

You really shouldn't state an opinion as a fact in your thread title as it could give people the wrong idea.

Stealth is far from useless at low levels.

Some where on these forums is a thread posted by Xorn where he DM'd a level 1 play test for three characters that I was in... a Rogue, a Ranger, and a Wizard.
Stealth was far from useless and we used it to great effect surprising our enemy all through the dungeon.

There are other uses as well where you can hide during combat when you meet certain criteria. I did it once or twice the other day on my Rogue and it worked out pretty well.

Stealth is far from useless at low levels it's a powerful skill that can be used to great effect with a little forsight and tactics.

 

[Derren]

Stealth is far from useless at low levels.

According to that entry unless the PCs roll very high most of the time they would be harder to detect when walking normally than when trying to be stealthy as they have to roll higher than 20 to be more silent then when they are not stealthy.
That sounds rather useless to me at low level.

 

[ozziewolf]

According to that entry unless the PCs roll very high most of the time they would be harder to detect when walking normally than when trying to be stealthy as they have to roll higher than 20 to be more silent then when they are not stealthy.
That sounds rather useless to me at low level.

You must be reading that wrong or something because it doesn't say that at all..

Originally Posted by The DMG
If the PCs are moving at normal speed through the dungeon and making no attempt at stealth, monsters in a room behind a door hear them with a DC 25 Perception check (active or passive). If the PCs are quiet, the PCs make a Stealth check with a +5 bonus (to account for the muffling effect of the door) to set the monsters’ Perception DC.

If a PC isn't trying to be stealthy the monsters get a 25 perception check behind a door. Pretty high but ok no problem they're not trying to be quiet anyways.
If the PC's are being quiet they get a +5 to their hide ability.. great mines at 12 now so it would be 1d20+17 although we would roll the lowest stealth check.. in my party that would be the warlord 1d20+3 (He has a -1 armor check penalty and -1 dex penalty.) When moving quietly that would go against the monsters passive perception unless they where actively listening.. ok assuming passive it's 10 plus any modifiers. Otherwise it's 20 plus any modifiers.
I really don't see how this is breaking stealth. If anything it's encouraging people to try and move quietly through a dungeon.