Stealth Removal - House Rules (and fun)

juuxo

First Post
After a few sessions of D&D 4th edition play, both in combat stealth and the Prime Shot class features seem bulky or not "fun". The following House Rules remedy the situation.


:1: The first house rule "No In-Combat Stealth" removes stealth from combat after any pre-combat stealth is broken.

No In-Combat Stealth
You can no longer stealth without the use of a power in combat situations (though you could begin a combat situation hidden).


:1: A new rogue build that allows ranged attack based rogues to use sneak attack without relying on stealth. This build relies on ranged attacks versus unprotected targets from cover - Sniping.

Sniping - Rogue [deadly sniper] class feature
As a minor action, designate a creature that you have cover or concealment from as your target. If that target does not have cover from your attacks, gain combat advantage against that creature with ranged weapon attacks until the end of your turn. Allies are not considered adequate cover for sniping (though enemy creatures do provide adequate cover to avoid being sniped).


:1: Replace the Prime Shot class feature of the Ranger with something more suitable (and tactically fun). Note that two-weapon fighting style rangers do not gain this class feature.

Covering Fire - Ranger [archer] class feature (replaces Prime Shot)
If you are prone, or have cover or concealment from your Quarry, you gain +2 to ranged weapon attack rolls against your Quarry. This bonus does not stack with combat advantage. Allies are not considered adequate cover for covering fire.


:1: An additional feat specifically made to complement the Covering Fire class feature, though usable by anyone.

Steady Aim - Heroic Feat
You suffer no penalty to attack rolls from being prone when using a bow or crossbow.
Normal: You suffer -2 to attack rolls when prone.


:1: Yet another rogue build - Knife Thrower, this time for throwing attack specialization. I admit it’s a bulky read but I believe it accomplishes the desired goal - to create a unique favorable positioning for throwing attack rogues that allows them to use the sneak attack class feature (without reliance on stealth).

Deadly Throw - Rogue [knife thrower] class feature
You gain combat advantage when you make an unobstructed ranged weapon attack against nonadjacent creatures. To check for an unobstructed attack, draw a line between the middle of the square you occupy to the middle of the square the target occupies. If the line does not cross any squares with cover generating objects your attack is considered unobstructed. Note that both allied and enemy creatures count as cover generating objects.


:1: Currently to maximize defense the Warlock should move at least 3 squares every turn of combat to gain concealment. This is an optional class feature for the lazy warlock (lets be nice and call him a turret warlock)

Blend with Shadows - Warlock class feature
As a move action, you gain concealment until the end of your next turn.
At character creation a warlock can choose either Shadow Walk or Blend with Shadows as a class feature.


:1: A replacement for the Prime Shot warlock class feature, that blends with their concealment generating ability.

Boon of Shadows - Warlock class feature (replaces Prime Shot)
You gain +1 to attack rolls when you have concealment gained from Blend with Shadows or Shadow Walk.


:1: A new feat for those polearm users out there!

Second Line Soldier - Heroic Feat
You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls against nonadjacent creatures when wielding a melee weapon with reach.
 

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So... the Prime Shot feature gives a benefit to the ranger and warlock when they are doing the thing they should otherwise not want to do, a little encouragement to mix things up or counterbalance a moment of weakness...

Your version accentuates situations they want to capitalize on, and covering fire is even a higher bonus. That doesn't seem right at all.

Similarly, the warlock is encouraged to move around to make things more interesting, whereas blend with shadows encourages you to not move at all... that seems against desirable design.

Curious: Did you have friendly targets allow stealth, and were bitten by it, and that's why you're implementing the no stealth policy?
 

keterys said:
So... the Prime Shot feature gives a benefit to the ranger and warlock when they are doing the thing they should otherwise not want to do, a little encouragement to mix things up or counterbalance a moment of weakness...

I'm not sure i'd want to encourage people to take a sub-optimal position. I don't mind the mix things up idea, but +1 attack rolls doesn't bring much in the way of fun to me. Counterbalance weakness, I like that idea too, but once again bring the fun.

keterys said:
Your version accentuates situations they want to capitalize on, and covering fire is even a higher bonus. That doesn't seem right at all.

First from an archer perspective. Currently, you only need cover if you are under ranged attack, if you are not it is probably a poor position as its likely that the position granting you cover also grants cover to your opponents.

I wanted to encourage the archer to take cover at all times, giving them a positioning goal. In our early sessions the archer did take cover, but realized that having a clean field of fire (not taking the -2 enemy cover penalty) was much more valuable then having the defense of cover. In a later session when he was asked to maximize his use of stealth. He once again started taking cover, but only because he would not only get the defense bonus of cover but could also stealth every round and offset the cover his opponent would very often have due to his positioning. Having the archer searching for cover in combat for defense and sometimes a boost to offense was alot more fun and entertaining.


keterys said:
Similarly, the warlock is encouraged to move around to make things more interesting, whereas blend with shadows encourages you to not move at all... that seems against desirable design.

I agree having the warlock move around makes things more interesting. The warlock is similar to the ranger above. If the warlock was under attack, the Shadow Walk ability was great, if he wasn't then it was worthless. The replaced Prime Shot makes it always to the warlock's advantage to move around. If they choose the Blend with Shadows class feature instead they are encouraged to sit tight every round (at the cost of a move action).

Having different "flavors" of warlock positioning seemed like fun. You could be the constantly moving nimble warlock or the fat slob bring the shadows to me warlock.

keterys said:
Curious: Did you have friendly targets allow stealth, and were bitten by it, and that's why you're implementing the no stealth policy?

No, we did not have the friendly targets allow stealth rule (though it appears valid in the rules as written). In the heavy stealth session we did have a ton of dice rolls, then a drop back to using passive checks, then a geez this is just annoying progression. Then the realization that every character could take stealth, and with alot of stealthing NPCs a realization that trained stealth and trained perception would be overly beneficial.
 


So far I'm digging the adjustments.

So far our group is CONSTANTLY trying to play to our strengths...and very rarely is it prudent (especially with the deadly encounters in KotSF) to "play against role". In fact, I wish some things (particularly the Infernal Warlock nuances) were a bit more clear in how the classes should be "ideally" played.

I'm a little confused on the Knife Thrower thing, though.

Are you saying that all I need to do to get Combat Advantage is to stand in the open and attack a non-adjacent critter with a thrown dagger?

i.e. As long as nothing/no one is between me and the critter, I get Combat Advantage?

Hmm...if that is the case, I would have to call that heavily broken. Sure, it keeps the rogue from hiding behind the fighter...but it's far too easy to move one square away from a critter and instantly gain all the fun stuff Combat Advantage grants.

Instead, I envision Rogue Dagger Tossers as mobile, medium ranged throwers...the counter to the Sniper Ranger who hides behind cover from across the room.

As such, I'd want to give Dagger Throwers something like +1 Hit/Dmg if you move your full speed prior to attacking.
 

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