Stealth revision..

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Thanks for explaining the differences, i totally did not see one had a trigger to be used.

Note that by the RAW, Fleeting Ghost allows you to make a stealth check as part of the power. This allows you to make that check in an area of normal cover or concealment and remain hidden under the rules for remaining hidden. Customer Service has said both it does and doesn't work this way, as well as that there is no official answer.

This reading makes Fleeting Ghost the Hide power, Chameleon the Stay Hidden power and Shadow Stride the Sneak Power.

 

[Eldorian]

Note that by the RAW, Fleeting Ghost allows you to make a stealth check as part of the power. This allows you to make that check in an area of normal cover or concealment and remain hidden under the rules for remaining hidden. Customer Service has said both it does and doesn't work this way, as well as that there is no official answer.

This reading makes the power crazy good. I'd say that the power lets you make a Stealth check, but you do not become hidden unless you meet the requirements for becoming hidden, so it's a pointless roll unless you have total concealment or superior cover. This reading does what Fleeting Ghost is supposed to do, I think, which is duplicate the paragon feat Secret Stride at level 2.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

This reading makes the power crazy good. I'd say that the power lets you make a Stealth check, but you do not become hidden unless you meet the requirements for becoming hidden, so it's a pointless roll unless you have total concealment or superior cover. This reading does what Fleeting Ghost is supposed to do, I think, which is duplicate the paragon feat Secret Stride at level 2.

There is nothing crazy good about it. It provides an entry point for becoming hidden, which is lower than the absurdly high requirements of Superior Cover or Total Concealment. The other Stealth utilities also provide a benefit beyond what can normally be done with the Stealth skill. This was one of the design parameters discussed in Races and Classes, that rogues can use skills in ways that no other class can.

You can read it how you want to your personal taste, but there is no balance issue in the RAW reading.

 

[Eldorian]

There is nothing crazy good about it. It provides an entry point for becoming hidden, which is lower than the absurdly high requirements of Superior Cover or Total Concealment. The other Stealth utilities also provide a benefit beyond what can normally be done with the Stealth skill. This was one of the design parameters discussed in Races and Classes, that rogues can use skills in ways that no other class can.

You can read it how you want to your personal taste, but there is no balance issue in the RAW reading.

If there wasn't a balance issue, then the stealth revision wouldn't have made it so hard to become hidden. An invisible halfling in a bush throwing daggers that no one seems to understand where they're coming from is a balance issue. With your reading of Fleeting Ghost, the halfling can just sit there and become hidden again after every attack, even tho he only has concealment from being in a bush.

And stop insisting that it's RAW that it lets you hide in plain sight. I see nothing in the power that lets you become hidden if you fail to meet the conditions required to let you become hidden. Next you'll tell me that Quick Fingers lets me pick pockets from 20 feet away because it lets me make a thievery check without specifying that I need something to steal nearby.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

If there wasn't a balance issue, then the stealth revision wouldn't have made it so hard to become hidden. An invisible halfling in a bush throwing daggers that no one seems to understand where they're coming from is a balance issue. With your reading of Fleeting Ghost, the halfling can just sit there and become hidden again after every attack, even tho he only has concealment from being in a bush.

And stop insisting that it's RAW that it lets you hide in plain sight. I see nothing in the power that lets you become hidden if you fail to meet the conditions required to let you become hidden. Next you'll tell me that Quick Fingers lets me pick pockets from 20 feet away because it lets me make a thievery check without specifying that I need something to steal nearby.

The Stealth revision addressed multiple issues. And the full intention of those were never clarified, but it seems unlikely that they were intended to not allow Rogues to use Stealth or the Stealth related powers, since the lead developer posted that rogues using stealth all the time to get combat advantage wasn't a big deal (at a time pre-update, when the benefits were greater) and that rogues and to a lesser extent rangers, were supposed to be the best at hiding and sneaking, not a wizard with an invisibility spell.

It resolved hiding behind allies, the too-high benefit for being hidden, the action required to locate a hidden enemy, everyone rolling stealth checks regardless of their class or role just on the off chance they'd make it, etc. The wording of Fleeting Ghost wasn't changed, even though this question had been raised pretty much from the time the book was released. It wasn't even a proposed update in the compendium updates that briefly showed proposed updates (including updates to Chameleon and Shadow Stride with a date of 8/31/2008 IIRC).

Rules as Written: "You can move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty on this check." No prerequisite or condition listed for making the check. Look at the revised Bluff-to-hide entry, it also doesn't specifically delineate that you don't need cover or concealment. You make a bluff check and make a stealth check, just like here you use the power and make a stealth check. Or, check Shadow Stride, which specifies that you must have cover in order to make the Steath check to remain hidden along your path. The RAW is perfectly clear, whether that was the intent, and whether the same intent exists post-errata as pre-errata only Wizards knows.

If you were going to argue this aggressively, you could have at least learned how the rest of the rules work Your halfling isn't hidden until he completes his move and succeeds on his check, and he becomes visible after he attacks. Most of the map will know exactly where he is and where his attacks came from even when he is hidden. Barring the use of other powers of course, which is a big part of what powers do, create exceptions.

Search the forums and read the other threads if you want to see how it works in detail, as well as anything else. I'm not retyping a half dozen threads worth of posts because you don't like the answer.

 

[Eldorian]

The Stealth revision addressed multiple issues. And the full intention of those were never clarified, but it seems unlikely that they were intended to not allow Rogues to use Stealth or the Stealth related powers, since the lead developer posted that rogues using stealth all the time to get combat advantage wasn't a big deal (at a time pre-update, when the benefits were greater) and that rogues and to a lesser extent rangers, were supposed to be the best at hiding and sneaking, not a wizard with an invisibility spell.

It seems very likely they were intended to reduce the ease of becoming hidden for all classes, rogues included. Rogues still find it easier due to powers.

It resolved hiding behind allies, the too-high benefit for being hidden, the action required to locate a hidden enemy, everyone rolling stealth checks regardless of their class or role just on the off chance they'd make it, etc. The wording of Fleeting Ghost wasn't changed, even though this question had been raised pretty much from the time the book was released. It wasn't even a proposed update in the compendium updates that briefly showed proposed updates (including updates to Chameleon and Shadow Stride with a date of 8/31/2008 IIRC).

Because Fleeting Ghost makes sense as written, just as Quick Fingers.

Rules as Written: "You can move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty on this check." No prerequisite or condition listed for making the check. Look at the revised Bluff-to-hide entry, it also doesn't specifically delineate that you don't need cover or concealment. You make a bluff check and make a stealth check, just like here you use the power and make a stealth check. Or, check Shadow Stride, which specifies that you must have cover in order to make the Stealth check to remain hidden along your path. The RAW is perfectly clear, whether that was the intent, and whether the same intent exists post-errata as pre-errata only Wizards knows.

Bluff specifically states that you become hidden if your subsequent stealth check is successful, which is a case of an exception to the normal conditions of becoming hidden. Fleeting Ghost does not say you become hidden. It says you can make a stealth check. If there is anything a stealth check can do after your move, then you can do that with the stealth check granted by Fleeting Ghost. Just as Quick Fingers lets you do anything a thievery check can do when you use it. Quick Fingers doesn't let you do anything with thievery you would not be normally able to do with a standard action, and Fleeting Ghost doesn't let you do anything a stealth check couldn't do after a move action, just negates the penalty for moving more than 2 squares.

If you insist that you are right, then following your logic, I insist that you believe that Quick Fingers would let a rogue pick a pocket 20 feet away.

If you were going to argue this aggressively, you could have at least learned how the rest of the rules work Your halfling isn't hidden until he completes his move and succeeds on his check, and he becomes visible after he attacks. Most of the map will know exactly where he is and where his attacks came from even when he is hidden. Barring the use of other powers of course, which is a big part of what powers do, create exceptions.

Yes he becomes visible after every attack, obviously. I was referring to the enemy not knowing where the attacks came each time, i.e. to the halfling gaining combat advantage. Sure they know what square he's in, but yet they're taken by surprise by his attacks from that square? There is not enough to hide behind if they know where you are at. It made no sense, and was updated.

Search the forums and read the other threads if you want to see how it works in detail, as well as anything else. I'm not retyping a half dozen threads worth of posts because you don't like the answer.

I'm sorry, is there official errata on these forums not on Wizards' website? I'm not confused on how Fleeting Ghost works. My interpretation is logically consistent with other powers with similar wording, such as Quick Fingers, and results in a reasonable power for a level 2 utility. Your interpretation results in high level rogues wanting to keep a level 2 utility because it does something that no other at will does: let you hide when you only have concealment or cover. Which is crazy powerful for some rogue builds, for example ranged attackers.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Snipped a bunch of stuff addressed in a half dozen or more threads.

Like I said, look it up. I'll help you out here though:

Your interpretation results in high level rogues wanting to keep a level 2 utility because it does something that no other at will does: let you hide when you only have concealment or cover.

Everyone keeps a level 2 utility. You don't replace them as you do encounter and daily powers. There is a chart in the PHB that tells you how many powers you get and when, as well as which ones get replaced, you might want to check it out. Chameleon is an at-will that does something no other at-will does as well (lets you remain hidden when you lose cover and concealment), as is Shadow Stride (lets you move across an area without cover or concealment without being seen). A high level rogue would want to keep all three powers, if he wants to be good at using stealth.

As an aside, it isn't my interpretation. It is the literal reading of the rules as written, and I wasn't one of the people that originally pointed it out.

I don't care what you insist, and find it laughable that you're using the word, so I won't insist on anything myself, but I will suggest again reading the previous threads on this topic, where everything you've brought up has been addressed previously.