Stealth/Sneak Attack "Rogue" Build Advice

[Quirken]

Hey guys-

I came across these forums via google and this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3r...4-small-rogue-swordsage-twf-build-advice.html

I'm in a somewhat similar boat, so I thought I'd ask for thoughts.

My DM is starting a Monstrous/Scoundrel/Faerun campaign at ECL11.

My character is a Goblin with the Shade template applied (Races of Faerun, level adjustment +4). He's essentially going to be a stealthy, acrobatic thief.

Catch is, I'm trying to figure out how best to do multiclassing, and can't make up my mind.

I said "rogue" in quotes because I'm actually using the Rookblade as my main class. It's essentially a Rogue crossed with a Binder (see Tome of Magic). You can find the class free if you're interested, but for all intents and purposes, it's a rogue with different progression: http://www.pactmagic.com/downloads/supplement_06.pdf

I've never played a stealthy character, nor been in a group with a rogue. So I really don't know what to expect yet.

I've been doing a lot of reading, and I'm thinking of using a variety of other classes to supplement the rookblade. I'd like to know what more experienced players think.

A few different classes I might have by ECL20, # of levels, and why:

1. Rookblade 9+ (main class)
2. Scout 0 or 3 (skirmish ability, since I know I won't be able to sneak attack all the time)
3. Swordsage 1 or 2 (has some really cool stances, and some useful abilities)
4. Swashbuckler 0 to ? (good base attack bonus, free weapon finesse)
5. Invisible Blade 0 or 5 (good BAB, bonus to sneak attacks)

Through the use of feats, swashbuckler levels can stack with rogue/rookblade to determine sneak attack damage, and rogue/scout levels can stack to determine skirmish damage.

My concern is that if I branch out too much, I'll gimp my character, especially because I already have a level adjustment +4. I'm kind of a newbie, and I've never had a character past level 5 before.

I'm thinking (after a few levels), I might be
Rookblade 10 / Scout 3 / Swashbuckler 1 / Swordsage 1
or
Rookblade 9 / Scout 3 / Invisible Blade 5

or something like that.

Thanks guys!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I really reccommend you drop the template. +4 LA will hinder your skill ranks, gaining class features, and most importantly...you'll be really squishy and easily die.

You seem to have Tome of Magic. I think that's the book with the Dark template for +1 LA, why not use that instead?

 

[Quirken]

I really reccommend you drop the template. +4 LA will hinder your skill ranks, gaining class features, and most importantly...you'll be really squishy and easily die.

You seem to have Tome of Magic. I think that's the book with the Dark template for +1 LA, why not use that instead?

I'm kind of a D&D newbie, so bear with me. In a normal campaign, I'm sure you're right. Perhaps even in this case. But since we're doing a "monster campaign," everybody else is going to have level adjustments, and I doubt my DM is going to throw something at us with the intention of slaughtering the entire party. In fact, we have a playtest this Saturday where he's going to try and get a feel for how strong we are as a party.

That said, the Shade template is pretty badass. I know +4 is a large LA... but the only thing the Dark template has that's worthwhile is HiPS, which my DM thinks is broken anyway.

Shade template grants increased speed, AC, attack, damage, saving throws, fast healing 2, and a number of really useful abilities. Control light, invisibility (once/round), darkvision, mirror image (3/day), shadow stride (teleport through shadows. every 2 rounds), spell resistance... All in all, I think it's a pretty good deal for +4 LA.

I was thinking about taking the Telfammar Shadow Lord prestige class (Or Shadowdancer) to get some of those abilities, but it would eat up most of my feats.

And with the rules in Unearthed Arcana for reducing level adjustment, I'll be at +3 as soon as the party gains its first level.

The only thing I'm really missing out, as far as I can tell, is on HP. A few class levels, for sure, but since everybody else is, too, I'm not too worried about that part.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

And with the rules in Unearthed Arcana for reducing level adjustment, I'll be at +3 as soon as the party gains its first level.

Unless there's a houserule, that's not the case. See here. Even if the text is a little confusing (it is), the table should make it pretty clear what you're in for. For +4 LA, you need 12 class levels before you can pay off even the first point of LA. You would then need another 9 (21 total) to drop the 2nd, another 6 (27 total) to drop the 3rd, and another 3 (30 total class levels) to be rid of it. You will be stuck with your LA a LONG time, almost certainly the entire game.

Dark template, on the other hand, would be able to pay off the +1 LA by 3rd class level. Just making sure you know what you're getting into.

That template sounds good, maybe it will work for your campaign, and if you can use it to enter that prestige class (I have never seen it, but have heard horror stories of triple pouncing charges in one round using it), great!

 

[Quirken]

Unless there's a houserule, that's not the case. See here. Even if the text is a little confusing (it is), the table should make it pretty clear what you're in for. For +4 LA, you need 12 class levels

Eesh, for some reason I thought it was ECL 12, but you're right. Yeah, that's brutal.

You will be stuck with your LA a LONG time, almost certainly the entire game.

Dark template, on the other hand, would be able to pay off the +1 LA by 3rd class level. Just making sure you know what you're getting into.

A good point.

The prestige class itself offers more or less the exact same features as the template, except it requires you to take like 4 feats to get in - the template was more of a replacement for the class.

Thanks for the advice.

Do you have any experience with multiclassing rogue/scout or rogue/swordsage?

 

[Sunking]

the one problem I see with combining skirmish with sneak attack is that they seldom stack, you would be better off going for one of them and stacking it so high you can and then trying to use it as much as posibly, that said sneak attack often gets less use later on since a lot of monsters are immune to crit (undeath, elementals, plants and construkts just to mention the obius) so be carfull if thats your focus and the DM uses these critters alot.

 

[Quirken]

the one problem I see with combining skirmish with sneak attack is that they seldom stack, you would be better off going for one of them and stacking it so high you can and then trying to use it as much as posibly, that said sneak attack often gets less use later on since a lot of monsters are immune to crit (undeath, elementals, plants and construkts just to mention the obius) so be carfull if thats your focus and the DM uses these critters alot.

Hm. That's a really good point.

I was already thinking about them not stacking, and just thinking, "I'll use skirmish when i can't use sneak attack."

But that's 3 levels in scout plus 1 or 2 feats in order to make the skirmish damage increase, when I could just focus on sneak attacks to begin with.

Thank you!

 

[Sunking]

no problem just pay with xp

 

[Herzog]

Dungeonscape has Penetrating Strike, an alternate class feature that let's you do half your Sneak Attack damage to monsters normally immune to SA when flanking. (not when they are denied dex bonus though, so it'll have to be flanking)
It replaces Trap Sense, so I'm not sure how that would combine with your Rookblade (I think I saw it getting Trap Sense at lvl 5 instead of 3, so the ACF would probably also start at lvl 5 instead of 3, if your DM allows it)
Alternatively, there are spells in the spell compendium that allow you to Sneak Attack constructs (golem strike) and undead (grave strike) for one round. They are first level spells for mages and clerics respectively, but you could try and get your hands on a couple of wands and use them with UMD when confronted with the creature type in question.

 

[coyote6]

There are also magic items that let you get sneak attack dice on various types of normally immune creatures -- e.g., greater truedeath crystal for undead. I believe there's something for constructs in MIC, too, but I'm not sure.

If you were a scout/ranger, there's a feat that lets your levels stack for skirmish damage & favored enemy, and lets you apply skirmish damage to favored enemies, even if they'd be immune. Another PC in the D&D game I'm in is using it. I don't know if there's something similar for rogue/rangers; maybe your GM would let you adapt it to rogues, though.