Stealth - Streamlined PEACH

[clearstream]

Having given exhaustive consideration to RAW, CSRs, designer remarks, and the FAQ, here's what I'm moving toward for Stealth. Much of this is RAI (assumed lasting-condition), but some items are unavoidably contentious. I've chosen to retain the wiser interpretation, wherever several are possible. Your feedback is really appreciated.

1. If you have cover, concealment, or a diversion from any source against your enemies, you can use stealth provided your DM deems the given situation appropriate. Allies usually aren't appropriate cover for stealth; they don't provide cover in your turn. Carrying a light source prevents you from hiding.

2. You hide using a minor action, or a power or skill other than stealth that explicitly grants a check; or as part of a move action, at the end of that action.

3. If your enemies are capable of team-work and can communicate, compare your check result to the highest passive Perception amongst them. You are hidden from all of them if you roll equal or higher than that. You are not hidden from any of them if you don't.

4. If your enemies are incapable of team-work or cannot communicate compare your roll to each of their passive Perceptions individually. You can be hidden to some and not others.

5. Being hidden means that enemies who are not alert to your presence don't become alert to you, you have combat advantage, and you have displacement (on yourself only) against ranged and melee attacks. If you hid as part of a move action, you are not hidden until your final square.

6. Enemies who are alert to you can attack and try to spot you. They can make active Perception checks in their turns using minor actions. You are no longer hidden to any enemy who rolls equal or higher than your stealth check, or hits you with a ranged or melee attack. Once an enemy spots you, they may share information in the same way as 3. or 4. above.

7. Enemies who aren't alert to you can't attack or try to spot you. They become alert to you anytime you stop hiding in sight of one of them.

8. Your hidden condition ends as an immediate reaction if you attack, shout, take an immediate or opportunity attack action, or choose to stop hiding.

9. Your hidden condition ends as an immediate interrupt when you lose cover or concealment from one or more of your enemies or create a light source, unless you were taking one of the actions listed in 8. above.

10. You are never hidden from your allies.

Relevant modifiers to keep in mind are penalties to Perception due to interposing lightly obscured squares (-5), penalties on attacks due to cover (-2), and penalties on ranged or melee attacks due to concealment (-2, stacks with cover). Superior Cover or Total Concealment on top of stealth places you under those rules on PHB188, and in addition your enemies may have to pick squares as described on PHB281.

[sblock=What is RAI?]Good question. I use the following guidelines to intent in formulating the above wordings

a. Powers are intended to be the main focus of combat. Even for Rogues.

b. Rogues are intended to get CA for Sneak Attack most rounds. Stealth isn't the only way to do that. Their own and buddies powers and tactics should contribute.

c. Stealth is intended to produce a lasting hidden condition that can span actions and turns. You can hunker down and hide quietly for an hour, if you want to.

d. It is intended that you can dart from open into cover or concealment, and end up hidden. I believe it is also intended that you can be hidden during each square of your movement, but I can't find a good way to word that given the transient conditions that may apply to each square in conjunction with the possibility of interrupts.[/sblock]
[sblock=1. Cover or Concealment] Most uses of stealth require cover in your turn, but you can use cover from allies with immediate interrupt actions to ranged attacks against you. You don't need to start your turn with cover or concealment to use stealth as part of a move action.[/sblock]
[sblock=2. Minor Action or End of Movement] I am in the 'lasting condition' camp for stealth: hiding can extend from action to action and turn to turn. Unfortunately, it is both complex and buggy to run stealth over the span of a move action. It is clean in play and fair in practice to use the ruling I give, but sometimes stealth users will want to make a move entirely hidden. If they do, they should use a minor action first, then move.

No one implements the RAW of the first line of the Stealth block literally, because no one allows spamming Stealth checks in opponent's turns as part of Free actions. Therefore no one has real guidance from RAW as to what to allow.[/sblock]
[sblock=3. Highest Passive] They freely share information concerning spotted hiders. If even one of them spots you, you're not hidden[/sblock]
[sblock=4. Incapable of Team Work]For this kind of enemy, you might like to assume a narrow field of interest as well: then you can simply ignore any who aren't interested in what the stealther is doing. [/sblock]
[sblock=5. Hidden] 'Choose a square to attack, using whatever information you've gleaned...'? If the rules do something, they shouldn't hide it. Displacement emulates your DM using some fair or random method to decide what squares your enemies pick. It's the level 16 Wizard utility power.

If you decide Displacement doesn't work for you, you'll need to introduce steps to pick squares, and you'll have to decide what, if any, difference is caused by having Superior Cover or Total Concealment on top of stealth.[/sblock]
[sblock=6. Alert Enemies] If displacement saves you, go ahead and assume they didn't guess what square you were in.[/sblock]
[sblock=7. Enemies Who Aren't Alert] They don't know you're there so shouldn't react to you, but maybe one will get lucky and walk past your cover.[/sblock]
[sblock=8. and 9. Stop Hiding] Has to end some time. Note that if you decide you want to run stealth square-by-square for movement, this will get complicated.[/sblock]
[sblock=10. Allies] Once in a while it's fun to run a full-fledged stealth mission, but ignoring information plainly in front of them can distract players from your main adventure. If your sneakers want to hide for combat advantage several times every encounter you might prefer not to make that an effort for everyone else.[/sblock]


-vk

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Can you provide supporting citations for each of these?

 

[ravenight]

I don't think the ROI has a concept of a persistent hidden state, merely a question of whether or not a particular enemy is aware that you are around and whether or not that enemy can see you. Stealth pretty explicitly says that it is only something you do as part of an action, so you can do something stealthily, and then an enemy can lose track of you, but if you want to do anything else stealthily, you have to succeed at a check again, and if the enemy who knew you were there before, but now doesn't see you wants to attack or locate you, they make an active perception check against your stealth as a free action.

 

[clearstream]

Can you provide supporting citations for each of these?

Yes. Check my other thread Stealth - the low down UPDATED. Those apply here. I've done two things

First, I read Mearls' remark about enemies sharing information the way I like. Since Mearls never clarified that remark, no one has the high ground about his real intent. Once it's decided that if one enemy knows where you are, they all do, things become a lot simpler.

Second, per RAW, I don't allow hiding to elide over transient losses of cover or concealment. Once hidden RAW allows stealth to continue over movement, or any other action that doesn't explicitly break it. That means there is a hidden condition in effect.

In play then, you tend to see variations on the following. Attack > Hide > Move, or Attack > Move > Lose C/C > Hide, or Hide > Move (hidden) > Wait or Attack. It's fast and clean to let players use the minor to hide, and it fits with the description of minor actions.

Everything else flows from there, within RAW etc, as mechanical necessity. Noting that displacement is just a means to emulate randomising the square an enemy picks to attack.

Stealth as it stands goes against Mearls' principle that if the game does something, it shouldn't hide it. What I've mainly done is resolve everything mechanically inevitable, and made honest and consistent the benefits. RAI.

As for is it good, fun, and fair to hiders. Hiding is still a damn good defence that gives CA very effectively: using the above RAI DMs can grant checks to hide with few reservations.

-vk

 

[MarkB]

Let me take my own shot at this.

You may hide as a minor action if you have cover or concealment and are unobserved by those from whom you wish to hide. Your Stealth check is opposed by the passive Perception of anyone who has line of sight to you, which must exceed it for them to notice you. On their turn, any creature within line of sight that is actively looking for opponents may make an active Perception check as a minor action.

You must move in order to hide if you are being actively observed by those you wish to hide from. You must move into or through cover or concealment, moving at least two squares within it, and if you move three or more squares in total you take a -5 penalty to your Stealth check. Your check is compared to observers' passive Perception immediately, and they may make active checks on their turn as a minor action.

While you are hidden, those whose Perception checks were insufficient to spot you cannot see or target you. They may guess which square you are in and make ranged attacks, but take a -5 penalty even if attacking the right square, or make Close or Area attacks at no penalty. An opponent who knows your position (either as a result of a successful attack or a successful Perception check) may communicate this information to any ally who has line of sight to both him and you. This allows those allies to target your square accurately, but does not eliminate the -5 penalty on ranged attacks, and they must still make successful Perception checks to spot you. Pointing out a person's location is considered a successful Aid Another check, granting allies a +2 bonus to their Perception checks.

You must make a new Stealth check as a minor action each round in order to maintain stealth. The new check result replaces the old.

Using any Power (including a Basic attack) that targets someone other than yourself reveals your position. In order to regain stealth, you must move, as described above.

You cannot be selective in making Stealth checks. Allies from whom you have cover or concealment must make successful Perception checks to know your position. As a minor action, you may signal your position to an ally, but take an immediate -5 penalty to your Stealth check by doing so.

-------------------------------

That's largely the result of my own interpretation of the rules as written and the clarifications provided. It fulfills the described result of a successful Stealth check - that you are unheard and hidden from view.

I added the necessity for movement if observed as a simple way of adjudicating when a character is eligible for a Stealth check, and to eliminate the "very obvious place to hide" factor of a rogue somehow successfully hiding himself within the only square of cover or concealment on the map.

EDIT: And I agree that allies do not provide cover for purposes of attempting to hide.

 

[yu gnomi]

9. Your hidden condition ends as an immediate interrupt [/b]when you lose cover or concealment from one or more of your enemies, unless you were taking one of the actions listed above.

What actions are you talking about here?
If you used a minor action to hide, do stay hidden even when you lose concealment?

 

[clearstream]

What actions are you talking about here?
If you used a minor action to hide, do stay hidden even when you lose concealment?

I mean the actions in 8. The reason is that since Mearls ruled (sensibly enough) that hiding doesn't end until you complete the entirety of an attack action, that means that takes priority over hiding ending due to loss of cover/concealment.

For example, you Deft Strike moving 2-squares out from cover/concealment and roll to attack. Your hiding ends as an immediate reaction to your attack, not as an immediate interrupt.

Another example, you Move 3-squares into one lacking c/c. Your hiding ends as an immediate interrupt and you are not hidden for your remaining 3-squares of movement.

BTW someone said there is no 'hidden' condition under RAW. The answer is they need to think about the RAW on what ends hiding, and what you might possibly do without ending hiding, and for how long.

-vk

 

[Paul Strack]

I've been following your work on Stealth pretty closely and like the results of what you've done so far. This is very close to what I am doing, and I plan on adopting your rules wholesale. The idea of using Displacement instead of "Pick a Square and Attack" is brilliant. I am definitely stealing that for both Stealth and Invisibility.

There is only one major thing I am doing differently. I am letting my group's rogue make ranged attacks from cover and make a Stealth check to gain CA. The basic idea is that the rogue combines the Stealth roll with the draw weapon minor action immediately before the attack and loses the hidden status immediately after. To keep everyone in the group from doing this, I ruled that this "stealthy attack" is Trained Only.

I think it is part of the RAI that rogues generally get CA for their attacks, and this extra rule reduces the amount of Stealth shenanigans the rogue has to go through.

 

[clearstream]

Forked Thread: Stealth - Streamlined PEACH

Forked from: Stealth - Streamlined PEACH to critique MarkB's RAI in some detail.

You may hide as a minor action if you have cover or concealment and are unobserved by those from whom you wish to hide.

Until Mearls clarifies his remark about information sharing, no one can pick exactly what information he meant was sharable. If you assume exact location can't be shared, DM must track separate awareness conditions for each enemy. Unless you are running a mission where stealth is the focus (I do sometimes), ruling that all enemies in the encounter share the same information is nearly all of the time as fair to the hider as tracking separately, but plays a lot faster. If exact information can be shared, highest Perception is the guy to share it, so don't bother rolling against anyone else.

You must move in order to hide if you are being actively observed by those you wish to hide from. You must move into or through cover or concealment, moving at least two squares within it.

I don't understand this ruling. 5-squares of concealment breaks sight. Any number of squares of cover will leave some unblocked LOS, unless in conjunction they are really superior cover. The way I'm handling it is you'd check to hide first, then move hidden through the cover/concealment. You might need to use a standard to move into cover/concealment first, if you don't have it already. That seems cleaner.

While you are hidden, those whose Perception checks were insufficient to spot you cannot see or target you. They may guess which square you are in

This is very close to how I have it in Stealth - the low-down UPDATE. The reason I moved to just using Displacement is that once you try as a DM to pick squares fairly, you most often end up using some random method. Let's say you pick two squares and roll d6 50/50. First, that's probably too good a protection for a skill to give in combat (At-Will 50% resist all ranged/melee attacks, and -5 to hit if you don't resist) and second it's burdensome to keep picking squares, making up odds, and throwing dice. Displacement is a fair way to emulate all that fuss, but faster, cleaner, and more consistent. Note that if you aren't using the 10 points over rule from TWYCS, you've no basis to pluck that -5 out of them. That -5 is tied to the same thing the 10 points over rule is!

You must make a new Stealth check as a minor action each round in order to maintain stealth. The new check result replaces the old.

By RAW stealth doesn't end except on certain actions, but more importantly why do all that rolling if nothing is happening to end stealth? I just go with the first roll and move on, until something changes.

Using any Power (including a Basic attack) that targets someone other than yourself reveals your position. In order to regain stealth, you must move, as described above.

Quite nice ruling, and one I am moving to. It probably needs to be qualified, since some powers explicitly don't reveal your position, and others don't read like they should. I'm about to read through the list and try to put some order to it, but for now I plucked the Attack, Immediate, and Opportunity, keywords out.

You cannot be selective in making Stealth checks. Allies from whom you have cover or concealment must make successful Perception checks to know your position. As a minor action, you may signal your position to an ally, but take an immediate -5 penalty to your Stealth check by doing so.

This is a just and fair minded rule, but a pain in the bottom to DM. I'm tired of hiders monopolising the attention and forcing everyone else to strain their RP accomodating them. Economy of attention!

That's largely the result of my own interpretation of the rules as written and the clarifications provided. It fulfills the described result of a successful Stealth check - that you are unheard and hidden from view.

I added the necessity for movement if observed as a simple way of adjudicating when a character is eligible for a Stealth check, and to eliminate the "very obvious place to hide" factor of a rogue somehow successfully hiding himself within the only square of cover or concealment on the map.

EDIT: And I agree that allies do not provide cover for purposes of attempting to hide.

To be honest, they're fair-minded rules. I believe in play they making hiding a bit more effort to DM than I'd like, and unless you bias your square picking they'll make hiding imba in terms of the defence offered.

-vk

 

[clearstream]

I am letting my group's rogue make ranged attacks from cover and make a Stealth check to gain CA. The basic idea is that the rogue combines the Stealth roll with the draw weapon minor action immediately before the attack and loses the hidden status immediately after. To keep everyone in the group from doing this, I ruled that this "stealthy attack" is Trained Only.

You know, that's a great idea. Your ranged guy gets the CA the designers said they wanted him to have, with minimum fuss. I like the Trained limit... <thinks> The only thing to bear in mind is that using a minor puts a cost on hiding, and that cost is probably justified considering the benefits.

This stuff is economy of attention. We want our hiders to do the stuff that's fun, but not to take an unfair share of our DMing time, or get all our other players to strain their RP to accomodate them, or have defences far out imba compared to their buddies.

I'm not sure about using displacement for invisibility. It might feel right once you factor in the -5 penalty you'd have against an invisible foe, which should stack with cover for -7, as compared with the -4 worst case for a hiding one.

-vk