Stealth - Streamlined PEACH

[clearstream]

Sure, why not? Let's see what you can do with a free action.

Drop held objects. Okay, so if you make the check, nobody noticed you drop the object.

Talk. Well, that works out just fine. Make your check and you've whispered quietly enough that only those who make their Perception checks can hear you.

I struggle to believe you just posted that! You talk quietly enough that you're hidden and get CA + other benefits. What th... ?

Or you drop a held object quietly enough that you're hidden and...

Well, they certainly both work a lot better once you leave out the minor action.

Huh? They are both extremely valuable powers with the minor action ruling, and much diminished otherwise.

To be honest, what you've written here really makes me lean back the other way. These aren't arguments. I seriously mean you no offense in saying that, but, well, there is no response required. You've convinced me to go back and change my position to where I was before.

-vk

 

[MarkB]

I struggle to believe you just posted that! You talk quietly enough that you're hidden and get CA + other benefits. What th... ?

Or you drop a held object quietly enough that you're hidden and...

Did you actually read what I wrote?

Stealth checks are made as part of the action you want to perform stealthily. If you make a Stealth check as part of dropping an item then you drop the item without anyone noticing you do it - and that is all.

If you want to use a Stealth check to actually invoke the Hidden condition, then you must make the check as part of the action you take to hide - such as moving into hiding, through or into cover or concealment.

Huh? They are both extremely valuable powers with the minor action ruling, and much diminished otherwise.

Fleeting Ghost lets you move more than 2 squares and make a Stealth check with no penalty as part of that movement. How is that diminished by making the check as part of your movement, and having it come into effect at the end of your move? What benefit is gained by using the minor action instead?

Shadow Stride lets a hidden rogue move from cover to cover, making a Stealth check that kicks in at the end of his movement. If he succeeds, he was unseen during his move.

That's a weird power in any case, since if you fail your check and there was something an enemy could have done if they'd seen you mid-move, you effectively have to roll back time and let them interrupt you. But it actually conforms to my view better than yours (the Stealth check is made at the end of the move, and doesn't require any separate action), and adding a minor action wouldn't lessen its paradox-like behaviour or make it any more effective.

Now please, do tell me how the lack of requirement for a minor action leaves either of these powers 'much diminished'.

To be honest, what you've written here really makes me lean back the other way. These aren't arguments. I seriously mean you no offense in saying that, but, well, there is no response required. You've convinced me to go back and change my position to where I was before.

I didn't think it was necessary to lay out my case in such detail - I assumed that you'd grasp the implications readily enough. Hopefully this will clarify them for you.

 

[clearstream]

Did you actually read what I wrote?

I thought I did, but let's check

Stealth checks are made as part of the action you want to perform stealthily. If you make a Stealth check as part of dropping an item then you drop the item without anyone noticing you do it - and that is all.

Well, I can't find anything in RAW about that being the case. It's not so much that it's an unreasonable ruling, but it's outside anything I've thus far read on the subject, official or otherwise. The rules block on Stealth only gives one possibility for a successful check.

So far as I am aware, any Stealth check produces a hidden condition. Thievery is more what you're discussing (sleight of hand)

Fleeting Ghost lets you move more than 2 squares and make a Stealth check with no penalty as part of that movement. How is that diminished by making the check as part of your movement, and having it come into effect at the end of your move? What benefit is gained by using the minor action instead?

When I first read Fleeting Ghost I thought 'Great, this lets me make a check even though part of my action was through invalid spaces.' Obviating the penalty meant little to me, since there's a feat you ultimately take for that (and anyway, with +14 from L2, who cares?). The power informed a lot of my subsequent thinking. At-Will. Grants a check. Doesn't mind you crossed open spaces. All kept uniquely valuable with the minor action ruling. With the end-of-move ruling, all made 100% redundant by the Shadow Stride feat. That doesn't feel intentional.

Shadow Stride lets a hidden rogue move from cover to cover, making a Stealth check that kicks in at the end of his movement. If he succeeds, he was unseen during his move.

Exactly! The interesting part is it lets you cross open spaces hidden. When I read that I loved it. Something only Rogues could do. Now, I'm not saying the power is redundant with either ruling, but the power is a lot tastier if you can't move through open and hide at the cover on the other side with simply a move action.

Taken together, FG and SS really make me feel the intent is that you can't usually hide with an action that spans invalid spaces. Obviously some will disagree with that.

That's a weird power in any case, since if you fail your check and there was something an enemy could have done if they'd seen you mid-move, you effectively have to roll back time and let them interrupt you. But it actually conforms to my view better than yours (the Stealth check is made at the end of the move, and doesn't require any separate action), and adding a minor action wouldn't lessen its paradox-like behaviour or make it any more effective.

Not at all. You must be hidden at the start, and you must make a check at the end. The power gives you that check. Please recollect my ruling is that you make a check using a minor action, or a power or skill other than Stealth that explicitly grants you one.

I didn't think it was necessary to lay out my case in such detail - I assumed that you'd grasp the implications readily enough. Hopefully this will clarify them for you.

You know, I had that very same thought...

-vk

 

[MarkB]

I thought I did, but let's check



Well, I can't find anything in RAW about that being the case. It's not so much that it's an unreasonable ruling, but it's outside anything I've thus far read on the subject, official or otherwise. The rules block on Stealth only gives one possibility for a successful check.

So far as I am aware, any Stealth check produces a hidden condition. Thievery is more what you're discussing (sleight of hand)

How do you interpret "Part of the action you are attempting to perform stealthily", then? To me, it seems to indicate that the type of action you perform modifies the form of stealth that is granted. However, it's ambiguous enough that I won't cling to that interpretation.

When I first read Fleeting Ghost I thought 'Great, this lets me make a check even though part of my action was through invalid spaces.' Obviating the penalty meant little to me, since there's a feat you ultimately take for that (and anyway, with +14 from L2, who cares?). The power informed a lot of my subsequent thinking. At-Will. Grants a check. Doesn't mind you crossed open spaces. All kept uniquely valuable with the minor action ruling.

Ah, I see why you think my ruling reduces the utility of this power. You've interpreted it as doing something it doesn't do at all.

The power says nothing about getting around the normal rules for stealth. All it does is eliminate the movement penalty for your check.

With the end-of-move ruling, all made 100% redundant by the Shadow Stride feat. That doesn't feel intentional.

I guess you mean Secret Stride here. Yes, it does the same thing - at 11th level or above. Rogues get to do it at 2nd level. If you take the feat later, you can retrain the power.

Exactly! The interesting part is it lets you cross open spaces hidden. When I read that I loved it. Something only Rogues could do. Now, I'm not saying the power is redundant with either ruling, but the power is a lot tastier if you can't move through open and hide at the cover on the other side with simply a move action.

i never claimed you could. With a normal move with Stealth check, any time you break out of cover/concealment you are visible. If you re-enter cover/concealment by the end of your move, you can make your Stealth check to become hidden at that point.

Taken together, FG and SS really make me feel the intent is that you can't usually hide with an action that spans invalid spaces. Obviously some will disagree with that.

Well, you've misinterpreted FG, so that probably isn't helping. And the special thing that Shadow Stride does is let you move from cover to cover through open terrain, and remain hidden during that action, not just at the start and end of it.

Not at all. You must be hidden at the start, and you must make a check at the end. The power gives you that check. Please recollect my ruling is that you make a check using a minor action, or a power or skill other than Stealth that explicitly grants you one.

No, the power isn't giving you the check - the check is what the rules would normally give you as part of your move action. What the power does is let the whole of your move be hidden, even when moving in clear view.

 

[the_redbeard]

I see your point, and that wasn't quite my meaning. I don't mean making it a minor lets you hide before you achieve c/c. I mean it solves it by saying 'make your check where you're standing, under whatever conditions are affecting that one spot, with an action that promptly resolves. If your square is in c/c you get the check. If it isn't, you use a move action to get to one with c/c, earning a penalty for however many squares you definitely moved during your turn, and then use a separate action to try to hide.

This also feels like a tidier implementation of intent to me for dealing with Move 0 checks when the Rogue is in c/c, doesn't want to move, and just wants to be hidden. Throw in up to three minors, each check overriding the previous.

NB: Meant square 0 was c/c, but failed to say it

But you didn't say it - and in fact created a situation that your solution doesn't solve.

Going by RAW that stealthing is PART of whatever action is to be performed stealthily is more flexible in dealing with situations, especially since it does NOT rule out taking a minor action to stealth when the situation requires.

NOTE: action to be performed stealthily. MarkB is correct, every usage of stealth does not necessarily mean that you are hidden. It is perfect sense that using stealth to drop an object does not hide you.

This small little application of common sense is necessary since RAW obviously can't handle all situations. I'm sure this provokes convulsions, but I can't see why: you're perfectly happy inventing house rules out of whole cloth (minor actions and displacement) and advocating them to everyone.

Review of 188:

Stealth: Part of whatever action you are trying to
perform stealthily.
Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from
view.

So you want to do something without being heard? What other skill would it be than stealth?
Stealth and thievery is different, because thievery is more specialized. If you can use thievery, you should because it does not require concealment and has a set DC. Stealth is a more general skill and is an opposed check.

How is this different from Thievery?
Stealth requires cover and concealment (or a distraction), and thievery doesn't. If you're in cover and concealment and want to drop an item (say some caltrops, or something you don't want to be caught with etc.) and want to drop the item without making a noise - use stealth.

 

[the_redbeard]

edit - double post due to slow response

 

[clearstream]

Going by RAW that stealthing is PART of whatever action is to be performed stealthily is more flexible in dealing with situations, especially since it does NOT rule out taking a minor action to stealth when the situation requires.

NOTE: action to be performed stealthily. MarkB is correct, every usage of stealth does not necessarily mean that you are hidden. It is perfect sense that using stealth to drop an object does not hide you.

Naturally it is reasonable to apply the interpretation you want to use, but don't then hammer me with the notion that I am uniquely deviating from some one line of Stealth that everyone else follows. An honest observation is that everyone deviates from that line by not allowing Stealth to be used as part of Free actions. You have endeavoured to finesse that by disconnecting Stealth as part of Free actions from the Success wording. MarkB acknowledged (correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't mean to put words in his mouth) that this line of argument might not be worth clinging to. I don't think so either, but I'm kind of interested to see where it leads.

I do feel there is an issue to consider with spamming Stealth checks using Free actions in opponents' turns.

You don't lack for arguments of substance. For example, I took the explicit grant of a check in Fleeting Ghost to imply that a check would not usually be granted in the situation Fleeting Ghost deals with. MarkB points out that he took that wording to be safety text, making it clear that notwithstanding you're using this power, you still get the usual check. That's an interesting argument.

However, since we are picking and choosing actions I call for conservatism. No one argues that a Stealth check shouldn't be allowed if you spend a minor action to make one, right? Nor that if a power or skill other than Stealth explicitly grants you a check, you shouldn't be allowed to take it. The ruling I give is the safe one. There are no posts saying what I'm allowing shouldn't be allowed, given the appropriate situation.

We'd like to add checks as part of move actions, at the end of that action, to the list, but why? I'm liking the darting into cover and disappearing that it offers, but I'm not seeing that the benefits Stealth applies need to be gained that way. What does it do that is so important we shouldn't err on the side of caution?

-vk

 

[Keenath]

How do you interpret "Part of the action you are attempting to perform stealthily", then? To me, it seems to indicate that the type of action you perform modifies the form of stealth that is granted. However, it's ambiguous enough that I won't cling to that interpretation.

To be more clear, Stealth checks are made when you're trying not to be seen or heard while taking actions.

If you're standing there talking to a guy -- or just standing next to him -- and want to palm a key off the table without being noticed or drop a pebble without him seeing or hearing it... that's Sleight of Hand, a thievery check.

If you're hiding in the shadows and you want to put down a heavy object or whisper to another character without revealing your presence, you make a stealth check.

Stealth checks relate only to gaining and maintaining the condition of you being hidden, not to conceal or misdirect an audience from noticing your actual actions. Stealth is all or nothing; the creatures are aware of you or not aware of you.

The power says nothing about getting around the normal rules for stealth. All it does is eliminate the movement penalty for your check.

Correct. If you want to hide while moving between cover, such as to cross a lighted hallway while maintaining stealth, you need the level 6 rogue utility power "Chameleon". Shadow Stride is even MORE powerful; it essentially gives you the benefits of both Chameleon and Fleeting Ghost simultaneously, so you can retrain one of them if you already had it.

Edit: Oh, actually, hang on. Chameleon is an interrupt. You can't use interrupts on your own turn. So Chameleon only allows you to retain stealth when something happens during another creature's action, like a creature moving so you no longer have cover against him, or somebody turning on a light to get rid of the shadow you were hiding in. Shadow Stride doesn't give you that functionality, but allows you to retain hiding while intentionally crossing a lit or uncovered area. Eh, whatever.

I never claimed you could. With a normal move with Stealth check, any time you break out of cover/concealment you are visible. If you re-enter cover/concealment by the end of your move, you can make your Stealth check to become hidden at that point.

Correct, but at that point you've shown your presence. You can hide again, but now the enemies are alert.

If you don't have Shadow Stride, your best bet is to try to get that Distracted clause in there -- which is totally up to the DM -- by doing something to make everyone turn around, like throwing a rock or casting ghost sound.

 

[MarkB]

To be more clear, Stealth checks are made when you're trying not to be seen or heard while taking actions.

If you're standing there talking to a guy -- or just standing next to him -- and want to palm a key off the table without being noticed or drop a pebble without him seeing or hearing it... that's Sleight of Hand, a thievery check.

If you're hiding in the shadows and you want to put down a heavy object or whisper to another character without revealing your presence, you make a stealth check.

Stealth checks relate only to gaining and maintaining the condition of you being hidden, not to conceal or misdirect an audience from noticing your actual actions. Stealth is all or nothing; the creatures are aware of you or not aware of you.

Yeah, I'm leaning more towards that now. That being the case, I'd tend to say that in order to use Stealth, you must take an action that has the intention of making (or keeping) you hidden. None of the available free actions would qualify for that.

Correct. If you want to hide while moving between cover, such as to cross a lighted hallway while maintaining stealth, you need the level 6 rogue utility power "Chameleon". Shadow Stride is even MORE powerful; it essentially gives you the benefits of both Chameleon and Fleeting Ghost simultaneously, so you can retrain one of them if you already had it.

Edit: Oh, actually, hang on. Chameleon is an interrupt. You can't use interrupts on your own turn. So Chameleon only allows you to retain stealth when something happens during another creature's action, like a creature moving so you no longer have cover against him, or somebody turning on a light to get rid of the shadow you were hiding in. Shadow Stride doesn't give you that functionality, but allows you to retain hiding while intentionally crossing a lit or uncovered area. Eh, whatever.

Fleeting Ghost is still useful after you get Shadow Stride because it doesn't require you to be hidden when you start your action. You can start out observed, then move your speed into or through cover/concealment in order to hide without taking a penalty for that movement.

Correct, but at that point you've shown your presence. You can hide again, but now the enemies are alert.

If you don't have Shadow Stride, your best bet is to try to get that Distracted clause in there -- which is totally up to the DM -- by doing something to make everyone turn around, like throwing a rock or casting ghost sound.

Yeah, I've steered clear of Distraction in the conversations so far, because it's such a nebulous and DM-dependent condition. About the only rules-supported reliable way you can do it is with the once-per-encounter Bluff check - aside from that, it's all ad hoc.

 

[clearstream]

Yeah, I'm leaning more towards that now. That being the case, I'd tend to say that in order to use Stealth, you must take an action that has the intention of making (or keeping) you hidden. None of the available free actions would qualify for that.

Darn. I was hoping it would come as a pleasant surprise to you to see my swing back to RAW. However, I do agree that this is the other option and may fit the intent. WotC_Mearls certainly made remarks in that direction.

The thing is, we've got to stop straddling the divide.

Yeah, I've steered clear of Distraction in the conversations so far, because it's such a nebulous and DM-dependent condition. About the only rules-supported reliable way you can do it is with the once-per-encounter Bluff check - aside from that, it's all ad hoc.

Me too! I just keep mumbling it so it sounds like 'diversion'. Let's hope no one else notices.

-vk