Steven Erikson: "Memories of Ice"<A critique, and a thread on style and criticism>

[Mistwell]

Just finished the third book, and I feel the need to rant to anyone who has read this book and can comment. Lots of spoilers. I will try to tag them...

The book is overall good, and I found it very compelling. However, regarding the ending, WTF!

Spoiler

This book ended at Capustan. It was a fine ending. It was a horrific event, but in the end they took the city and captured the enemy and transformed them into a new unit of their own soldiers, transformed Gruntle, tied up many lose ends, etc.. Deal done. We can move on now.

But nooooo we still have the march to Coral. And that is where this book falls entirely apart for me. The battle for Coral was dumb, in many respects.

Contrasted with Capustan, we had no feel for the individual enemy, their plan, their strategy, or anything. I didn't feel like there was any sort of tactics and strategy at all really, unlike all of Erikson's other battles.

Nor did sacrificing the Bridgburners and really all of One-Arms host to get there early just so that Brood didn't have to use his hammer make ANY SENSE. Just ask the guy to not use his hammer - how about you try that instead of needlessly killing everyone to buy yourself what, an hour or so? Or concentrate on delaying Brood himself. It was a weak excuse.

And that sacrifice is what really pissed me off. No, not that so many named characters died - that is OK with me. It's that it made no sense for the plot, at all. Coral was going to fall without the Bridgeburners. Moons Spawn, and it's dragons and ravens, were doing just fine. The Segulah and Lady Envy were doing just fine. The combined army would have had plenty of time to march TOGETHER to Coral and calmly take it apart with the same kind of siege they are so good at. If you wanted to send the Bridgeburners ahead to destroy the hidden trenches, fine. But they should have retreated after that, not entered the city.

And what the heck was up with Itkovian releasing the T'Lan Imass BEFORE they could take out the K'ell hunter? He couldn't wait another 10 minutes? Sorry, I know he is supposed to be the grand hero of this book, but Itkovian was a jerk for doing that. By "saving" the hearts of those T'Lan 10 minutes to early, he is personally responsible for the death of most of One-Arms host. It was needless, and frankly self-centered and cruel, to not wait until the battle was over.

The Mhybe/Silverfox was fairly boring. The Necromancers, while entertaining, were a total distraction from the plot, and felt like they had been lifted from somewhere else and forced into the story for no particular reason other than he liked those characters.

What am I missing here guys. Give me the wisdom of your perspective. Make me feel better about what seems like a rushed, botched ending to an otherwise great book.

 

[Mistwell]

No help?

 

[drothgery]

What am I missing here guys. Give me the wisdom of your perspective. Make me feel better about what seems like a rushed, botched ending to an otherwise great book.

Sorry. I kept reading the series through the next two books -- and there are some really strong scenses in House of Chains -- but I'm taking the fact that every attemt to re-read Midnight Tides keeps not happening as an indication that I really shouldn't put any more into a series that gets as bleak as this one does.

 

[Klaus]

I just read the parts of Memories of Ice that featured Gruntle, because I liked how Todd Lockwood painted him. And that book rocks. The rest of MoI, I can't say.

 

[IcedEarth81]

Spoilers ahead

As far as the enemy units go, it's the difference between carrying out a siege and being sieged yourself. Also, the enemy figured that the K'ell Hunters would protect them regardless. The Pannion never really had a great strategy. He had the matron, the K'ell hunters, and the tenescowri.

They weren't trying to delay Brood. The Bridgeburners and Onearm went in first to prepare for the battle ahead. Kallor delayed Brood because that's what the Crippled God wanted. Brood later realized his mistake in delaying and wishes he would have hurried onto the battle with Whiskeyjack.

One-arm's Host, The Bridgeburners, Brood, nor Rake knew about the Segulah and Lady Envy, nor did they know about Togg and Fanderay. Heck, nobody really knew if Rake was going to show up or not. The Host and the BBs infiltrated the city because that's what they fealt like they needed to do.

The reason Itkovian released the Imass before the battle was because when they die they go into oblivion. Sure, he could have waited until after but some of them would have, as far as they knew at that point (before the Beast Hold stuff), been lost in oblivion. I disagree with the self-centered and cruel part. It would have been cruel for him to let them go into battle and get destroyed before releasing them. His part was all about self sacrifice.

Agree about the necromancers.

The ending of the story is indeed heartbreaking. That's the point. To stop this terrible empire they had to sacrifice a lot. Erikson's novels are all about pain, death, friendship, and perserverance. There's a lot more death in this series, and most of it is heartbreaking. His latest book is no exception. It's something I love about the series.

 

[Mistwell]

Spoilers ahead

As far as the enemy units go, it's the difference between carrying out a siege and being sieged yourself. Also, the enemy figured that the K'ell Hunters would protect them regardless. The Pannion never really had a great strategy. He had the matron, the K'ell hunters, and the tenescowri.

They weren't trying to delay Brood.

Umm, yes they were. They say so. They talk about it, away from Brood's hearing, that the reason they are doing this is to try and prevent him from using the hammer which would further damage Burn.

The Bridgeburners and Onearm went in first to prepare for the battle ahead.

The Bridgeburnners yes (and they accomplished that goal with few losses, but then declined to pull out and blow the tunnels), but not Onearm's host. The host itself went in for the reason they said - to stop the hammer from harming Burn.

Kallor delayed Brood because that's what the Crippled God wanted. Brood later realized his mistake in delaying and wishes he would have hurried onto the battle with Whiskeyjack.

Yeah none of that makes sense when you think about how Onearms Host went after the Bridgeburners, and didn't help anything really by going early. They could have gone together with a better result, except for that stupid hammer excuse. Onearms host itself did no preparing for the battle to come (Bridgeburners had already done that), they just stood in the way of the K'ell hunters and died for no particular good reason.

One-arm's Host, The Bridgeburners, Brood, nor Rake knew about the Segulah and Lady Envy, nor did they know about Togg and Fanderay.

Had they stuck to the plan, they would have known. And the only reason they didn't stick to the plan was that "Burn will cry if hit with the hammer again" claim which turned out to be baseless. They literally saved about 1 hour of time, at the cost of almost the entire army, to delay the hammer.

Heck, nobody really knew if Rake was going to show up or not.

I think doubting Rake makes no sense as well.

The Host and the BBs infiltrated the city because that's what they fealt like they needed to do.

To what end? What was the plan involving entering the city early itself...except the hammer issue?

The reason Itkovian released the Imass before the battle was because when they die they go into oblivion.

Actually, according to events in the prior book, they just sit right where their bodies become disabled. They could be released just as easily while disabled ("dead") as when fully moving. Nor did the Imass loss many of their numbers in the k'ell hunter battle. They had superior numbers and fighting prowess.

Sure, he could have waited until after but some of them would have, as far as they knew at that point (before the Beast Hold stuff), been lost in oblivion. I disagree with the self-centered and cruel part. It would have been cruel for him to let them go into battle and get destroyed before releasing them. His part was all about self sacrifice.

Really? So Itkovian deciding to sacrifice thousands and thousands of Onearm's host, and his own former troops as well, and Gruntle's troops, all at the expense of perhaps a dozen or so Imass, was not cruel? Sorry, looks cruel to me. He should have waited. If he were a deity, any deity that decides to sacrifice thousands to save the pain of a dozen (a dozen who are about to die anyway, 10 minutes later), is called an Evil deity. As a mortal, it's even worse since he has a personal relationship with those he sacrificed.

The ending of the story is indeed heartbreaking. That's the point. To stop this terrible empire they had to sacrifice a lot. Erikson's novels are all about pain, death, friendship, and perserverance. There's a lot more death in this series, and most of it is heartbreaking. His latest book is no exception. It's something I love about the series.

I am fine with sacrifice to stop the evil empire. But in this case, it was sacrifice for no purpose at all, and didn't even fit in with the plot. It was a military plan with zero chance of success (aside from the hammer delay), and it made the military leaders seem like they had suddenly become incredibly stupid.

Really it seemed like Erikson said to himself "I'd rather not have to write about the Bridgeburners anymore, and I'd like to reduce Onearm's host as well so I don't have to deal with it as much, so lets just kill them off here and make up some excuse about the hammer". It was a rushed excuse, which is totally unlike all the other sacrificed Erikson makes in the other books (and even in this same book, earlier).

 

[IcedEarth81]

"The stupid Burn hammer thing." How is the end of the world stupid? It's been a while since I read but I seem to remember the fear that waking Burn would equal the end of the world. That's pretty strong motivation to keep it from happening.

As far as Itkovian goes, I still say he wasn't cruel or selfish. I still say it would have been cruel to wait until afterwards. The Imass were fighting simply because of Silverfox and the Pannion Seer was a jaghut. It wasn't their war. They were being used to defeat the K'ell Hunters.

The main problem was there was distrust. Brood didn't trust One-arm and Whiskeyjack. They didn't trust him. Then you throw in Kallor with his past and his pact with the CG and you have some serious issues. I think it's pretty fair to say they weren't a well oiled machine.

 

[Mistwell]

"The stupid Burn hammer thing." How is the end of the world stupid? It's been a while since I read but I seem to remember the fear that waking Burn would equal the end of the world. That's pretty strong motivation to keep it from happening.

He had already used the hammer earlier in the book and nothing bad happened. And rather than talking to him about not using the hammer, or trying to delay him directly, they go ahead and sacrifice the army. And this buys them around an hours delay, which still results in him raising his hammer ready to hit it, and then stopping at the last second. You would think the reason this happens is because Onearm's Host went ahead, but no! In fact he's mostly ready to do it BECAUSE Onearm's host went ahead and got themselves killed.

As far as Itkovian goes, I still say he wasn't cruel or selfish. I still say it would have been cruel to wait until afterwards. The Imass were fighting simply because of Silverfox and the Pannion Seer was a jaghut. It wasn't their war. They were being used to defeat the K'ell Hunters.

They are still used to do just that. Just 10 minutes later, after everyone is dead. And plenty of them still die in the effort. It was a total waste of the lives of Onearm's host and the Bidgeburners and Gruntle's men and the Grey Swords. Nothing is really gained from doing it early, and a massive amount is lost, and he pretty well knew that in advance.

The main problem was there was distrust. Brood didn't trust One-arm and Whiskeyjack. They didn't trust him. Then you throw in Kallor with his past and his pact with the CG and you have some serious issues. I think it's pretty fair to say they weren't a well oiled machine.[/QUOTE]

 

[apoptosis]

A small tangent:

I really like Erickson but House of Chains almost did me in. It is weird how one character you can dislike so much that your desire to finish the book is crushed.

I ended up just skimming any section Karsa Orlong was in, hoping i wasn't missing anything important.

I wonder if I am the only one who just really cant stand reading about this character, he is an obstacle to me finishing the series.

I am actually readin the Iron Council by Melville and comparing and contrasting the authors. I definitely think Melville is the better writer (and i really like Erickson).

I do think Erickson is a bit overly verbose and he is writing the story from too many minor characters point of view which can be a bit disconcerting.

I do think he really fleshes out the world well though without boring you like i feel Jordan can do at times. Some of his original cast of characters (quickben, Kalam) are very well done. He writes powerful and competent characters that are moderatly epic that still have definable flaws very well.

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

Interesting experience. I started reading this thread, then noticed a post by me that I didn't remember at all. Then I noticed the date. I'd totally forgotten about it and it was strange to read my own comments.