StoneShape

[kayn99]

So in my group we have a little confusion about this spell and I was looking for some opinions about it. The DM suggest we place it up here for some feedback. Some of the people in the group read the spell as it can effect only one piece of stone. If you had a stonewall, you could only effect one stone. That stone needs to be in the size of the 10 +1 sf a level of the spell. There are others out their that feel that you could effect the any amount of stones in the wall as long as it was within the area effected. What are the opinions here.

Kayn

 

[ViciousPenguin]

To clarify, I (the DM of the group) considered what qualifies as "an existing piece of stone". The SRD reads:

You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose.

My interpretation was that a "piece" needed to be contiguous and unbroken. A castle wall, being made of 'pieces' of stone, could not be manipulated by the spell, unless it was cast multiple times on individual pieces. A counter argument was posed suggesting that the wall should be considered a single object and therefore one piece.

In the end we stuck with my interpretation, partly due to the wording of the spell, and partly due to my prejudice against breaching 10' thick castle walls with low level spells. If someone disagrees with my interpretation though, I'd love to hear your argument.

 

[StGabe]

I disagree with that ruling simply because it makes the power of the spell incredibly arbitrary. If you think it's too powerful for it's level then add levels to it or change the spell description in a more general fashion. Don't make it the case that it is too powerful or too weak depending upon arbitrary information about the current castle/dungeon/cave the players find themselves in. For example, are you going to have to carefully create all your adventures such that all stoneshape'able surfaces are made of multiple pieces just to tone the power of the spell down?

 

[StGabe]

I will add that I have no opinion about the wording in the manual (nor do I really care). As a DM I just always err towards what makes the most sense and is the most general/playable read.

 

[Maldor]

To clarify, I (the DM of the group) considered what qualifies as "an existing piece of stone". The SRD reads:


My interpretation was that a "piece" needed to be contiguous and unbroken. A castle wall, being made of 'pieces' of stone, could not be manipulated by the spell, unless it was cast multiple times on individual pieces. A counter argument was posed suggesting that the wall should be considered a single object and therefore one piece.

In the end we stuck with my interpretation, partly due to the wording of the spell, and partly due to my prejudice against breaching 10' thick castle walls with low level spells. If someone disagrees with my interpretation though, I'd love to hear your argument.

if thats your call i would have used it on the morter and bought down a much larger chunk of the wall

 

[kayn99]

What truly is the problem is not so much the spell but we use real world examples and structures in a fantasy setting. If a walled keep were to be made in a DnD world, they would take in consideration the problems that magic causes and build accordingly. Limiting the spell is the wrong direction to cure the problem, for you hamstring the spell in other situations. You will have to be come a geologist just to figure out if you can use the spell or not. Does this block of granite have feldspar in it and if it does, it count as continuous because of it?

Kayn

 

[frankthedm]

The DM made a good catch on this spell.

If a walled keep were to be made in a DnD world, they would take in consideration the problems that magic causes and build accordingly.

Yes, they do take these spells into account. Separate blocks are just one way of doing this. Layered walls are also good for dealing with disintagrate attempts.

Limiting the spell is the wrong direction to cure the problem, for you hamstring the spell in other situations. You will have to be come a geologist just to figure out if you can use the spell or not. Does this block of granite have feldspar in it and if it does, it count as continuous because of it?

If you want to limit the spell in such a manner, that’s your choice. Stone types changing would not change it being one piece of stone.

if thats your call i would have used it on the morter and bought down a much larger chunk of the wall

Mortar is more glue than stone. IF the spell does work on most motars in the setting, then builders avoid using it.


Stone Shape
Transmutation [Earth]
Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Stone or stone object touched, up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose. While it’s possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn’t possible. There is a 30% chance that any shape including moving parts simply doesn’t work.

Arcane Material Component
Soft clay, which must be worked into roughly the desired shape of the stone object and then touched to the stone while the verbal component is uttered.

 

[Rackhir]

First off it isn't exactly a "low level" spell. It's third for clerics/Druids and 4th for wizards. While this isn't exactly in Limited Wish territory, it isn't anywhere near the power category either. Compared to the other choices at those levels, it isn't something that is going to be getting taken a lot without a specific need.

Second it affects a very-very-very limited volume. A 10th level caster is only getting 20 cubic feet affected. That means 10th lvl caster is only going to be able to create a 5' by 4' by 1' deep hole with one casting of the spell. That isn't even large enough to walk through without crouching AND you're only getting 1' deep. Trying to make it just 2' deep narrows your "door" to 3'x3'. Given that a castle wall is going to be 10' to 15' thick and that they usually are rubble cored (which would be unaffected), it's hardly an instant castle killer or dungeon breach.

So limiting it to a contiguious unbroken piece of stone seems to be a needless nerf to an already limited spell. Especially since it doesn't get that specific in the spell description.

 

[frankthedm]

Especially since it doesn't get that specific in the spell description.

Oh, but it does.

You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose.

 

[Rackhir]

Oh, but it does.

You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose.

Obviously we disagree. But thanks for reposting exactly what was said above.