D&D 5E Storm Over Baldur's Gate: Sundering Adventure 1

the Jester

Legend
The Avatar Trilogy Lives.

I love Ed the DM and his original creation. I wish WOTC (and TSR prior) would not make him/ask him to do this kind of thing. He has spent the last 23 years trying to defend his reputation because of poor novel tie-in products. 10 years ago I would have trusted WOTC to get these products somewhat right, or passable. These days, no way.

Yeah, novel tie-ins- or any other sort of enforced metaplotting- SUCK. Terrible, terrible, terrible. And continuing D&D's proud tradition of mangling existing campaign worlds with every new edition is disheartening. The panel discussion on the Sundering claims that this will be the last FR-shaking event. That indicates they realize that FR-shaking events are totally lame... and the fact that they are doing another one despite that knowledge means that the "last Realms-shaking event!!1!!eleventy!!!" line is probably going to be discarded the next time there is an edition change.

Now, I realize that the Sundering thingie is all about bringing back lapsed FR players while still keeping the current ones... but come on.
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Actually I think that metaplots are awesome. The people who don't like them can just ignore them anyway, so it's not like they're in any way disenfranchised by the existence of a metaplot.

By contrast, those who want and enjoy them benefit from a metaplot being there. Simply put, it's better to have something that can be ignored by the people who don't like it, than to not have something that some people really want to see.
 

Therise

First Post
Although I loved the original Forgotten Realms gray box (1E), the Realms have gone completely crazy to the point that they're no longer usable. Elminster should have remained a simple sage with a few wizard levels. Instead, he's literally become an immortal DMPC with god-powerz and so much plot armor that it's ridiculous.

People hated the Time of Troubles because it turned the Gods into PCs/novel-protagonists. The concept had a lot of interesting possibilities, but since then the gods have become more and more myopic, DMPC, and outright ridiculous with each new edition.

Really good NPCs from 1st and 2nd edition have either been warped into unkillable and immortal/saved DMPCs or they were completely wiped out in the purge of 4E. It's the low-level, really interesting characters that gave FR its flavor, but they're all dead or radically changed into something totally ridiculous and overpowered.

Because people complained about power creep and other issues in 3.5E, they nuked the setting to create 4E. With most of the really good flavor elements and NPCs killed off, now they seem to think that a second worldwide nuke will "fix things" for 5E/Next. Has this ever worked in the history of any setting/world/intellectual property? Oh sure, they promise that this will be the "last time" we see a "Realms Shattering Event" but how many times can the gullible swallow this same old line? Honestly, whenever they need the "next big thing" for either an epic novel trilogy or the next edition, I guarantee you that this promise will be tossed out.

The Realms is no longer what it was, back when it was really good. The light humor it once had is gone, replaced in 4E with an attempt at gritty dark shades of gray and the "awesomez" of having devil pacts, half-demons, silly part-elementals, dragonboobz, and the like. It didn't turn out to be so gritty, and certainly wasn't awesome. More recent novels have seen a re-injection of lighthearted humor, but unfortunately it's all comedy of the Keystone Kops variety. It's not good. It's terrible and awful.

Honestly, I'm not even sure a total reset would help. The truly bad has overwhelmed the once good. No thanks.
 

the Jester

Legend
Actually I think that metaplots are awesome. The people who don't like them can just ignore them anyway, so it's not like they're in any way disenfranchised by the existence of a metaplot.

It's not as easy to ignore mateaplot as it sounds, if you want to make use of new products in the setting. Especially when metaplot elements significantly change or disrupt the setting (Time of Troubles, the Dark Sun stuff where the novel pcs killed a major setting villain, the Greyhawk Wars, just to name three campaign settings that were disrupted by metaplot/novel tie-ins).
 

I'll go on record and predict this product will be crap like most of the "transitional" tie-in products which give FR a bad name.

Please whistle me up and let me know if that turns out not to be the case -- I'd like to actually support a quality WotC-published adventure.
 

CAFRedblade

Explorer
The stance that story advancements in a campaign setting, any campaign setting, ruins it is odd to me to some degree. If you don't advance things story-wise then you have a static world and may as well never publish anything again. If you are DM'ing that setting, using a previous edition, have all the books, even if a change in rule set appears, there is nothing stopping the DM from completely ignoring the story updates while still using the newer gameplay mechanics. True some work must be done, but if you really like the older version of the setting over the newer, why not?

On the player side, one who prefers an older setting version to the newer one, that is more problematic, and decisions will have to be made by the player on what they want to do if a DM is using a different version of events versus their preferred choice.

I realize that some would like a setting to simply be fleshed out to greater detail, but not all DM's and very few players may ever buy a region specific locale book.
I stopped playing FR 3.5 when Eberron arrived, as it's my preferred setting, but I believe there were a rather large number of region books produced for 3.5 FR.
And heck while I picked up pretty much all the Eberron books, I'm pretty sure there were many out there that didn't as it wasn't their setting of choice.

Maybe I'll never understand that point of view for a hobby that is primarily made of up creative/imaginative thinkers.

In regards to the Sundering, I'm looking forward to it, I may not play much in FR, or read too many if any of the novels anymore, but I still like to follow it.
I'll be curious to see if a major reset button is hit, or perhaps, they will completely bring back Abeir-Toril into the limelight of the FR setting, splitting them
apart again, but permanently tying the two together via portals and so forth...
As for mechanics, I'm betting on it being done in the style of the upcoming Encounters, 4e, with 5e updates if they do actual Encounters/ Lair Assault events.
If there is a hardback book, I'd have to believe it'll be fairly neutral, edition wise, so that any generation of player can enjoy it, perhaps with full online support.
At least that's my wish spell for the year...
 

Therise

First Post
The stance that story advancements in a campaign setting, any campaign setting, ruins it is odd to me to some degree. If you don't advance things story-wise then you have a static world and may as well never publish anything again.
It's not that story advancement is bad in general. Most people who have been with the Realms actually prefer an ongoing, developing, and "living" world. When people complain about metaplot "ruining" the Realms (or any other setting), they are more often referring to:

- Extremely bad plotting/story that warps the entire tone and feeling of the world. With respect to the Realms, it's the gigantic world-altering events that don't fix any prior problems but are done solely to "fit" a new edition (e.g. the massive change from 3E to 4E Realms). They nuked the setting to radically transform it from a generic high fantasy setting into a post-apocalyptic "points of light" setting.
- Poor plotting decisions that get repeated. Regular "Realms Shattering Events" such as killing off the goddess of magic have been done to death in the Realms. Almost every time they've had an "epic" trilogy, they've had one of these "Realms Shattering Events" for the setting, and it's just not good.
- Emphasizing metaplot elements that people generally disliked. Many disliked the "Time of Troubles" in late 1E to early 2E because it turned the gods into PCs and novel characters, and they've stuck around as active protagonists in later novels. This wouldn't necessarily be bad, except that the Realms gods are consistently portrayed as incredibly myopic and short-sighted.

If you are DM'ing that setting, using a previous edition, have all the books, even if a change in rule set appears, there is nothing stopping the DM from completely ignoring the story updates while still using the newer gameplay mechanics. True some work must be done, but if you really like the older version of the setting over the newer, why not?
Of course this is possible to some degree. Many people ignored the changes made in the 1E-2E transition, and it was relatively easy to do so because the world/tone had not changed dramatically. But when you several major cataclysms and a 100-year advancement that kills off most NPCs (due to old age), it's almost impossible to stay current and up-to-date with the Realms while simultaneously trying to match up with a "living" setting.

Put another way, let's say you're playing Star Trek. You can play in the Kirk-Spock era and totally ignore everything afterwards, or you can advance up to the Picard/Janeway/Sisko era. But you can't do both, and there are radical differences between the two eras. Now imagine playing in the Kirk-Spock era but you're going with the new JJ Abrams 2009 movie version... there's no more planet Vulcan, and so on. Metaplot advancement can dramatically, radically change a setting.

On the player side, one who prefers an older setting version to the newer one, that is more problematic, and decisions will have to be made by the player on what they want to do if a DM is using a different version of events versus their preferred choice.

I realize that some would like a setting to simply be fleshed out to greater detail, but not all DM's and very few players may ever buy a region specific locale book.
Tons of region-specific locale books were published in the 2E Realms era, and most were fantastic. They sold well enough that most of these were redone as hardback books in the 3E period. I don't think this was a problem.

I stopped playing FR 3.5 when Eberron arrived, as it's my preferred setting, but I believe there were a rather large number of region books produced for 3.5 FR.
And heck while I picked up pretty much all the Eberron books, I'm pretty sure there were many out there that didn't as it wasn't their setting of choice.

Maybe I'll never understand that point of view for a hobby that is primarily made of up creative/imaginative thinkers.
Eberron's novels were divorced from canon. Eberron was, in many ways, almost a totally static setting. It didn't really have much advancing metaplot, and it was absolutely possible to ignore anything you wanted without players feeling disconnected from the "current" Eberron.

With the Realms, every single novel is instantly part of canon. Every single "Realms Shaking Event" becomes canon. To discard an "RSE" in the Realms immediately turns your game into a homebrew, because you're no longer following the "living" Realms. Further, the moment you do so, you've got a divergent world and you have to spend time explaining what's different between your world and the "real" Realms. Now for many players and DMs this would not be a big deal, but many players want that ongoing continuity and story, and want to plunk their PCs down into the "real" Realms.

In regards to the Sundering, I'm looking forward to it, I may not play much in FR, or read too many if any of the novels anymore, but I still like to follow it.
I'll be curious to see if a major reset button is hit, or perhaps, they will completely bring back Abeir-Toril into the limelight of the FR setting, splitting them
apart again, but permanently tying the two together via portals and so forth...
There's already been a great deal of discussion about their plans (mostly revealed at the last GenCon). They will "nuke" the setting again, and so it will mean another major divergence.

As for mechanics, I'm betting on it being done in the style of the upcoming Encounters, 4e, with 5e updates if they do actual Encounters/ Lair Assault events.
If there is a hardback book, I'd have to believe it'll be fairly neutral, edition wise, so that any generation of player can enjoy it, perhaps with full online support.
At least that's my wish spell for the year...
They've said it will start with a series of novels. This adventure "Storm over Baldur's Gate" is a tie-in adventure that will start to explore the massive changes they'll be making. Basically, the overgod AO is going to get involved and hit a re-set of some kind, and there will be a setting-wide cataclysm of some kind to make this happen.
 

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