D&D General Story Now, Skilled Play, and Elephants

Actual play of any game is messy. That's why transparency and group facing procedures are so useful. They help keep us accountable to one another.

I suspect you do mean any game here, but I want to put an exclamation on this and say the same thing works for all games outside of the TTRPG sphere. Humans are a part of both TTRPGs and ball sports. My guess is that many would say that TTRPGs are more sensitive to adjudication of edge cases than basketball. No_way_no_how. Any particularly session of basketball play features (a) a higher rate of rules disputes around particular edge cases and (b) the play of the game (and potential social fallout) is much more sensitive to these disputes. Because of that reality (ball sports being so sensitive to adjudication of edge cases), at the long-standing game at the court where I play ball, we have encoded (and we honor) specific procedures for resolving:

  • Kicked ball.
  • Out of bounds disputes.
  • 3 Point Line (was their foot on it) disputes.
  • Block/Charge (almost everything is "play through" unless its utterly egregious one way or the other and the whole court is in consensus).
  • Travelling.

Our basketball games proceed just fine despite the reality that WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more disputes come up in a single game of basketball that I play than in any given TTRPG sessions I run. Honestly, its probably a 200:1, basketball dispute (around only these 5 things): TTRPG dispute ratio! We average maybe 8 per ball session (which is roughly the equivalent of a TTRPG session in terms of time). Running TTRPGs, I've probably averaged 4 consequential rules/edge case disputes a year (that is with averaging running 2.5 games a week for years)?

And overwhelmingly its because we've encoded measures to deal with disputes; social credibility being on the line (don't be "that guy" or you're going to constantly catch social fallout) + shoot a 3 to resolve it + honor the call and you get next call.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Numidius

Adventurer
@AbdulAlhazred asserted a disjunction: GM fiat or roll the dice.

He also stipulated certain conditions as underpinning the disjunction: a realistically detailed world, with unconstrained variables, such that solving it as a puzzle is impossible.

If we reduce the number of variables, by reducing the realism of the fiction and stepping up the number of recognisable tropes/conventions/stereotypes, then GM decision-making won't have to obviate player decision-making. This is how Gygaxian skilled play works. It's also how The Green Knight works, although the latter system reaches for a quite different set of tropes, conventions and stereotypes and so sets up the problem-solving in a different way.
Now is crystal clear. Also @AbdulAlhazred thank you.

I guess that's why I organically push the game towards a more dramatic mode, starting with the npc/monster I bring to the table (the pc don't have much as background kickers or anything) trying to foster hard choices, or at least the notion that their actions will shift the instable balance in the scenario.

What I find useful in terms of gm exposition, or content introduction (even regarding past events and their long gone protagonists, philosophical issues about neutrality, hints of the planes outside prime material) , are the critical rolls (20s, 1s) when casting spells.
Spells, no more as-written moments of player-fiat (as you always point out), are opportunities for the whole table to play to find out what happens and an exercise in improvised adjudication.
 

Here's a quick example of actual play in Blades, where I can discuss exactly what I expected from the player side and how I could clearly track what the GM was doing when making decisions.

The score involved ending a war with another gang, by ending the gang. We had determined that they were holed up in a well fortified location, with the entrances booby-trapped and covered by prepared firing positions. Any direct assault was out the window (we, in play, repeated botched gather info checks, so things kept stacking against our interests). However, one solid success sequence during info gathering identified a weakness -- a weekly supply shipment. However, it also showed they had supplies delivered and then brought them in themselves. This set up the score -- my character would join the shipment crew (we had this pull) and try to finagle getting into the establishment to plant a bomb, which would disable the lower floor defenses and guards and allow a rush by the other, more martially oriented characters. This led to the engagement roll, which we got a 5 on, so the initial scene was going to be Risky in position.

With this, the GM framed the scene at the door to the establishment (a bar, currently closed), with the target gang ordering us to drop off the supplies outside. They were wary and watching, so anything done here could clearly spiral (hence Risky). I made a move to settle things by saying I had brought some good Skovland whiskey to these fine Skovland patriots (the gang is ex-Skovlander rebels, mostly, for those familiar with the setting, it's Ulf Ironborn's crew). I got a success. Here's where I'm going to talk about mechanics. For this role, I was leaning on my playbook as a Slide because it means I have excellent disguise abilities, with fine tools for this -- this ups my tier level for disguise attempts. Further, I am Skovlander, so I could easily affect the accent/manner/custom here. This meant the GM was obliged to consider this, and he did. The position was still Risky, but my leveraging of my playbook and my background meant that I received a bump to effect. Had the GM ignored these things, and left Effect at Standard, then he would have been clearly ignoring the system mechanics for tier and for potency and a number of the principles of the game. This is very clear in play. The GM here is good, so great Effect was on the table, and that meant my success should move towards my goal of getting inside the establishment to plant a bomb was achieved, or greatly advanced. As the GM had not established that this task was more difficult (no clock was put forth in framing to overcome), this was a direct success. Had the GM tried to waffle here, and start a clock that this action didn't fill, then this would have been obvious in play and a violation of the established processes of play (and principles). So, we moved the action to inside the bar. The situation wasn't resolved -- I still had actions to perform to accomplish the intent (plant the bomb, get out, set off the bomb), but the initial obstacle was completed. So, now the GM frames a new obstacle inside the bar -- I'm in and without suspicion (well, without more suspicion that would be normal). He frames a new wrinkle that there's a potential innocent -- a bar maid -- still here. Whether or not she's in with Ulf's crew or a hostage is unclear, and this is an obstacle that asks my character a direct question -- do I care? It's a nifty way to be a fan of the character by asking this kind of question, and presenting that there's a wrinkle we didn't expect and that could be a problem, because she's working where I wanted to plant the bomb.

Play continued from here, but this should be sufficient to illustrate that a system with clear procedures and principles serves to deliver play that is constrained by the system in a coherent way, but still allows for the play of the game to be unpredictable -- that GM and player input can result in wildly different outcomes while still being entirely within and guided by the system of play.

And consider the Flashback that Tita's player + Risk's player did once you set the bomb off and got a 4/5 result on the Desperate Position/Great Effect move (the move being toss the whiskey bottle w/ the refined/enriched electroplasmic vial - bomb - to one of the tweaker Skovs in the tavern as you and the hostage barmaid duck behind the bar):

"Can I check 2 Loadout boxes for Special Armor vs a physical complication and we rig it to the bottom of the whiskey crate that Mister takes into the tavern?"

This is as complicated of a Flashback as it gets in Blades. We settle on:

  • Yes (of course)
  • 2 Stress (this is a complex and complicated affair with big advantage)
  • 2 Loadout Boxes checked for Tita
  • Risk Tinker Action Roll to make it happen

Net result is:

1) Mister (Ovinomancer's character) has a Special Armor box to spend on this detonation.

2) He has to pick himself or the girl to protect. He actually picks the girl with the armored crate and eats the blast himself. Which is very interesting because it says something about his character's instinctive urge to protect that has yet to be tested/revealed in play.

3) So now Ovinomancer has to decide if he wants to Resist 3 Harm (Desperate Position 4/5 result = 3 Harm). He does. We throttle it back to 1 Harm (from a horrific clavicle wound to just a sternum bruise).

4) HOWEVER...his Resistance Roll goes VERY south. He takes a BOATLOAD of Stress and Stresses out of the scene. This will earn him a Trauma (4 and your character is toast). Ovinomancer resolves this (I always let my players resolve this stuff) as he rushes out of the tavern with the young girl under his arm and the two of them stagger out of the utterly exploderated bottom floor of the tavern (the leader and his 2nd is in the attic apt upstairs) and into the nearby canal. She pulls his barely conscious form out of the water to safety (this will have downstream Faction consequences and this girl may now become a relevant part of our play...maybe she'll join the Crew).

5) So 1 Harm to Mister later and Mister stressed out of the scene with a Trauma accrued (this will either be Reckless or Cold...he's mulling that over...regardless its a new thematic xp trigger for the character). HOWEVER, the fortified tavern is (a) now vulnerable to siege and (b) the 3 members of Ulf's Crew on the bottom floor are painting the walls...and the floorboards...and the ceiling joists...and the cobwebs...





This is an interesting scene for people to ponder.

Was this:

1) Skilled (Challenge-based) Play
2) Thematic/Premise/Narrativist Play
3) Threading the needle between both
 
Last edited:

clearstream

(He, Him)
This is assuming that what we're talking about is reasonably subject to this kind of polyvalent reading. Are you saying that B/X can reasonably be read to index something other than fair and impartial adjudication as the baseline for DM play?
For me, looking at it now, your view is right on that. I find the text in the B/X rule books extremely clear in guiding a DM toward fairness and impartiality.

There is in many places encouragement to offering a challenge. Speculatively, some DMs may conflate impartially offering a challenge with supplying an adversary. I am thinking of text such as this from a basic module - "this dungeon Is less deadly and more forgiving than one designed to test experienced players" - which implies that one designs a more deadly, less forgiving dungeon for experienced players.

There is a literal sense in which every B/X DM is adversarial... in that they are the adversary. No monster attacks, no fireball is cast with PCs at ground zero, but that the DM has that monster attack, or chooses the spell and its target. At the same time, I imagine many DMs just took it that since it was a game, and traditionally games had sides, they would be on one side and their players on the other.

I remember my first few sessions DMing, for my brothers. The feeling I recollect most strongly now was one of exploring alongside them - revealing the dungeon through their eyes. That was enchanting. I don't recall thinking about being fair or impartial, nor adversarial for that matter.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Which, IMHO, if I put my game designer hat on then I wonder if the game has explicated itself very well. Surely the designer intended something. It might be A, B, or something entirely different (C). If it was C, then clearly something was missed. If it was A or B then clearly that was insufficiently well communicated (I suppose there's always THAT GUY who misinterprets ANYTHING, but...).
Given the hundreds of pages of rules disputes, and exchanges on the meaning and application of principles, designers must be much worse at their job than I had formerly supposed ;)
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
For me, looking at it now, your view is right on that. I find the text in the B/X rule books extremely clear in guiding a DM toward fairness and impartiality.

There is in many places encouragement to offering a challenge. Speculatively, some DMs may conflate impartially offering a challenge with supplying an adversary. I am thinking of text such as this from a basic module - "this dungeon Is less deadly and more forgiving than one designed to test experienced players" - which implies that one designs a more deadly, less forgiving dungeon for experienced players.

There is a literal sense in which every B/X DM is adversarial... in that they are the adversary. No monster attacks, no fireball is cast with PCs at ground zero, but that the DM has that monster attack, or chooses the spell and its target. At the same time, I imagine many DMs just took it that since it was a game, and traditionally games had sides, they would be on one side and their players on the other.

I remember my first few sessions DMing, for my brothers. The feeling I recollect most strongly now was one of exploring alongside them - revealing the dungeon through their eyes. That was enchanting. I don't recall thinking about being fair or impartial, nor adversarial for that matter.
See, I think playing the adversaries in the game (monsters etc) honestly and impartially is something very different from taking an adversarial stance against the PCs/players. I don't think there are actually that many DMs who take an actual adversarial stance, which is to say that they are somehow trying to 'win' some sort of contest against the players. That is what I was talking about though.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
And consider the Flashback that Tita's player + Risk's player did once you set the bomb off and got a 4/5 result on the Desperate Position/Great Effect move (the move being toss the whiskey bottle w/ the refined/enriched electroplasmic vial - bomb - to one of the tweaker Skovs in the tavern as you and the hostage barmaid duck behind the bar):

"Can I check 2 Loadout boxes for Special Armor vs a physical complication and we rig it to the bottom of the whiskey crate that Mister takes into the tavern?"

This is as complicated of a Flashback as it gets in Blades. We settle on:

  • Yes (of course)
  • 2 Stress (this is a complex and complicated affair with big advantage)
  • 2 Loadout Boxes checked for Tita
  • Risk Tinker Action Roll to make it happen

Net result is:

1) Mister (Ovinomancer's character) has a Special Armor box to spend on this detonation.

2) He has to pick himself or the girl to protect. He actually picks the girl with the armored crate and eats the blast himself. Which is very interesting because it says something about his character's instinctive urge to protect that has yet to be tested/revealed in play.

3) So now Ovinomancer has to decide if he wants to Resist 3 Harm (Desperate Position 4/5 result = 3 Harm). He does. We throttle it back to 1 Harm (from a horrific clavicle wound to just a sternum bruise).

4) HOWEVER...his Resistance Roll goes VERY south. He takes a BOATLOAD of Stress and Stresses out of the scene. This will earn him a Trauma (4 and your character is toast). Ovinomancer resolves this (I always let my players resolve this stuff) as he rushes out of the tavern with the young girl under his arm and the two of them stagger out of the utterly exploderated bottom floor of the tavern (the leader and his 2nd is in the attic apt upstairs) and into the nearby canal. She pulls his barely conscious form out of the water to safety (this will have downstream Faction consequences and this girl may now become a relevant part of our play...maybe she'll join the Crew).

5) So 1 Harm to Mister later and Mister stressed out of the scene with a Trauma accrued (this will either be Reckless or Cold...he's mulling that over...regardless its a new thematic xp trigger for the character). HOWEVER, the fortified tavern is (a) now vulnerable to siege and (b) the 3 members of Ulf's Crew on the bottom floor are painting the walls...and the floorboards...and the ceiling joists...and the cobwebs...





This is an interesting scene for people to ponder.

Was this:

1) Skilled (Challenge-based) Play
2) Thematic/Premise/Narrativist Play
3) Threading the needle between both
My answer -- both/neither/sometimes. My choice to toss the bomb doesn't look very skilled to me -- it was a high risk action with a high chance of complication/failure. It wasn't a good bet. It was, though, very thematic for my character, and had been lurking for some time (saving Martha, the unwillingness to deal with the Lost fanatic, etc). But I certainly didn't leverage the system to accomplish goals, I threw a hail mary. When I didn't have to, because this escalation wasn't necessary, at all, to finishing the mission.

But, that said, the immediate response of the other players was to leverage the system, hard, to buy the kind of mitigation of risk that makes the above action make a good bit of sense -- right up until I spent it thematically again. Now, I did think I had a reasonable ability to resist the consequence -- I did have 3 dice. But, even then, I figured I'd be pretty badly hurt anyway (it was a nasty little bomb after all, and at close range).

So, it's both/neither/sometimes for my answer. There absolutely was skilled play in there. But there was also not skilled play (mostly me, really). The rest of the session stuck well to skilled play -- the other players did a great job working together to defeat Ulf (who was surprisingly hard, due to bad dice luck).
 

Given the hundreds of pages of rules disputes, and exchanges on the meaning and application of principles, designers must be much worse at their job than I had formerly supposed ;)

It really depends on the game.

As I mentioned above in the Blades Flashback: this is the most complicated edge case interaction you’ll see in the game.

Yet myself and the 3 players trivially resolved it in a matter of moments. It was very akin to resolving a p42 Stunt in 4e. When the action resolution mechanics are encoded, robust, and well-integrated and the principles that undergird play explicit…it’s not particularly difficult to resolve even the most complex edge cases (with multiple rules interactions).

If the resolution mechanics aren’t any/all of those 3 things mentioned and/or the principles that inform play aren’t explicit and coherent (meaning they play nice with everything else in the system and promote expectant play)…well, that stuff becomes more fraught.

Fraught in the way my Long Rest recharge instance of play becomes fraught as competing play priorities collide.

In the example above there was absolutely no tension between play priorities in either the process of resolving the Flashback nor in the outcome upon the gamestate and the fiction that the Flashback yielded.

There was no sacrifice of competitive integrity or skillful play or theme/drama/premise. In my opinion, that needle was clearly threaded (and trivially so).
 

My answer -- both/neither/sometimes. My choice to toss the bomb doesn't look very skilled to me -- it was a high risk action with a high chance of complication/failure. It wasn't a good bet. It was, though, very thematic for my character, and had been lurking for some time (saving Martha, the unwillingness to deal with the Lost fanatic, etc). But I certainly didn't leverage the system to accomplish goals, I threw a hail mary. When I didn't have to, because this escalation wasn't necessary, at all, to finishing the mission.

But, that said, the immediate response of the other players was to leverage the system, hard, to buy the kind of mitigation of risk that makes the above action make a good bit of sense -- right up until I spent it thematically again. Now, I did think I had a reasonable ability to resist the consequence -- I did have 3 dice. But, even then, I figured I'd be pretty badly hurt anyway (it was a nasty little bomb after all, and at close range).

So, it's both/neither/sometimes for my answer. There absolutely was skilled play in there. But there was also not skilled play (mostly me, really). The rest of the session stuck well to skilled play -- the other players did a great job working together to defeat Ulf (who was surprisingly hard, due to bad dice luck).

You're the player here, so you get the final word on this (meaning, folks should put more weight to your words on this than my own).

However, from an outsiders (meaning "I'm not inhabiting the space of the 3 of you trying to overcome this brutally dangerous, impregnable fortress with a massive level of volatility involved...including itchy-trigger finger tweakers, a Master class sniper, and bomb-rigged doors"), these are my thoughts, for what its worth:

1) You adhered beautifully to Player Best Practices in Blades. Literally to all of them.

2) You guys worked together to martial resources in that moment (including the Flashback) to mitigate some of the fallout.

3) SEVERAL awesome things happened as a result...one of which was GAMESTATE IMPREGNABLE FORTRESS changed to GAMESTATE PREGNABLE FORTRESS + TEAM BAD GUY NUMBERS REDUCED BY 3 in exchange for 1/3 PCs.

4) You marshalled resources very well to try to "keep yourself in the fight" after the Desperate 4/5 Complication. It was a more than reasonable gamble. Sometimes, the odds don't work out and 3d6 turns against you. Like a Texas Hold Em player making "the right big move" but eating a "bad beat" on the River card....stuff happens.


You made a huge move, certainly readable as "worthwhile" in multiple interpretations of "worthwhile"...your opponent just caught a flier on the River and you ate a "bad beat." It happens.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
See, I think playing the adversaries in the game (monsters etc) honestly and impartially is something very different from taking an adversarial stance against the PCs/players. I don't think there are actually that many DMs who take an actual adversarial stance, which is to say that they are somehow trying to 'win' some sort of contest against the players. That is what I was talking about though.
Definitely. I wonder if posters who feel it does encourage an adversarial stance are thinking of the DM "winning", or maybe just offering an uncompromising challenge?
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top